Arizona Thread

[Sammyswordsman]

Defending State Champ Chandler looks to improve on a 13-2 season which saw them compete favorably vs. National Power IMG in a close 14-27 loss early in the year.  The Wolves are not a team that shy's away from tough competition as the travel to Centennial Corona on Aug. 17 to open the season.  Arizona boosters are chomping at the bit for this game, and figure this is the year that AZ will "take it to Calif" and make a statement on a National level.

Defending 4a Champs Saguaro have a tremendous amount of skill guys with multiple D-1 offers, and have amped up their schedule to serve notice that the Sabercats are for real, and deserve a place amoung the National Elite.   Nationally relevant OOS games on 8/24 vs Liberty (Nv), and 9/1 vs Calif. D-1 Runner up Helix will determine just how far Saguaro can progress nationally.

Calpreps has it:

Chandler 73.1

Saguaro 59.3

Perry 43.2

Pinnacle 42.7

Mountain Pointe 36.2

 

[Sammyswordsman]

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Posted 17 minutes ago

14 hours ago, Las Vegas_JC said:

Liberty is playing @ Saguaro (AZ) this year. This Saguaro team already has 19 players from the 2019 through 2021 classes with D1 offers. I'm pretty sure that they are the most talented team in AZ far surpassing Chandler, Centennial or Hamilton when it comes to pure talent. And the third most talented team in the west region just behind MD and SJB.

IMG is also playing @ Liberty this year. And everybody knows that the Ascenders are loaded. They probably have the most talent on one team in the nation.

Liberty is also playing Lone Peak (UT) and Lone Peak is one of the top three teams in Utah. Just behind Bingham and as good as East.

Liberty has also traveled to CA, HI, AZ, FL and TX. Coach Muraco is trying to play the best teams that he can. So that one day his Patriots can knock off Gorman.

"Most offers" shouldn't be immediately correlated to "most talented"; take a deeper look at the offer sheets for Saguaro and you see a lot of guys that have turned ideal D-1 measurables and production into mid-tier D-1 offers (the lineman commit to SJSU, the twins that have committed to Brown, the d-lineman who's lone offer is from Army).  These are guys that got their offers as much for what they've done off the field (grades) as it is for what they've done on it (this is a good thing).  Then you have a group of guys that have turned ideal D-1 measurables and middling production into solid offers (Robinson, the Polk brothers, Shivers), guys who have no varsity experience that are getting offers (Beverrett and Covington); both of these groups are kids being recruited not for who they are as players now but what they might become in 4-5 years (i.e. less a reflection of current abilities and more a reflection of potential).   Then there's a couple guys with fringe D-1 measurables who have massive production and mid-tier offers (Soelle and Randall); these are guys who have played their way into D-1 status (again, a good thing) but if were an inch or two shorter are entertaining juco and walk-on offers (reality is this could be said for a good share of Saguaro's D-1 kids).  Now we're to the guys who are "it", the guys that have the measurables to be D-1 studs and have demonstrated the ability for that to translate on the field; this is where Kelee Ringo and Damian Sellers come into the picture.  

How is that relevant?  Because when you're comparing Saguaro to Chandler you're comparing them to a team that has a handful of kids that fit the profile of the last group-Conover and Liebrock both got offers from about every big-time program in the nation, and also had fantastic production as juniors.  Demarcus Griffin and Matthew Pola-Mao are transfers who fall in that same category, and the junior class has a couple kids (Maldonado and Romney) that have already had big-time production and have started off with decent offer sheets (i.e. these are guys that aren't in that group yet but seem pretty destined for it).  

The offers Saguaro has gotten are reflective of a number of kids that fit the profile of a D-1 athlete (grades and height); this is not a bad thing in any way, shape, or form but is a very different thing than them having the most talent of any other team in Arizona.  Athlete for athlete Saguaro is not in the same class as the best 6A or even 5A teams in Arizona.  

[Wooderson]

39 minutes ago, Sammyswordsman said:

 

Defending 4a Champs Saguaro have a tremendous amount of skill guys with multiple D-1 offers, and have amped up their schedule to serve notice that the Sabercats are for real, and deserve a place amoung the National Elite.   Nationally relevant OOS games on 8/24 vs Liberty (Nv), and 9/1 vs Calif. D-1 Runner up Helix will determine just how far Saguaro can progress nationally.

 

 

Saying that they've amped up their schedule is an absolute joke-it's two alright out of state games and a couple games against 6A teams that were around the .500 mark last season; the remaining seven games are against teams that combined to win 31 games last season.  Liberty and Helix are the only two teams that played more than two rounds into the playoffs last season.

[Las Vegas_JC]

10 hours ago, Sammyswordsman said:

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Posted 17 minutes ago

"Most offers" shouldn't be immediately correlated to "most talented"; take a deeper look at the offer sheets for Saguaro and you see a lot of guys that have turned ideal D-1 measurables and production into mid-tier D-1 offers (the lineman commit to SJSU, the twins that have committed to Brown, the d-lineman who's lone offer is from Army).  These are guys that got their offers as much for what they've done off the field (grades) as it is for what they've done on it (this is a good thing).  Then you have a group of guys that have turned ideal D-1 measurables and middling production into solid offers (Robinson, the Polk brothers, Shivers), guys who have no varsity experience that are getting offers (Beverrett and Covington); both of these groups are kids being recruited not for who they are as players now but what they might become in 4-5 years (i.e. less a reflection of current abilities and more a reflection of potential).   Then there's a couple guys with fringe D-1 measurables who have massive production and mid-tier offers (Soelle and Randall); these are guys who have played their way into D-1 status (again, a good thing) but if were an inch or two shorter are entertaining juco and walk-on offers (reality is this could be said for a good share of Saguaro's D-1 kids).  Now we're to the guys who are "it", the guys that have the measurables to be D-1 studs and have demonstrated the ability for that to translate on the field; this is where Kelee Ringo and Damian Sellers come into the picture.  

How is that relevant?  Because when you're comparing Saguaro to Chandler you're comparing them to a team that has a handful of kids that fit the profile of the last group-Conover and Liebrock both got offers from about every big-time program in the nation, and also had fantastic production as juniors.  Demarcus Griffin and Matthew Pola-Mao are transfers who fall in that same category, and the junior class has a couple kids (Maldonado and Romney) that have already had big-time production and have started off with decent offer sheets (i.e. these are guys that aren't in that group yet but seem pretty destined for it).  

The offers Saguaro has gotten are reflective of a number of kids that fit the profile of a D-1 athlete (grades and height); this is not a bad thing in any way, shape, or form but is a very different thing than them having the most talent of any other team in Arizona.  Athlete for athlete Saguaro is not in the same class as the best 6A or even 5A teams in Arizona.  

1) I appreciate that you are on this message board. We need more representatives from AZ and UT. Plus you have great in depth information. The AZ prep report board is pretty dead.

2) I understand that some of the 19 kids with D1 offers at Saguaro have received those offers on their potential or raw talent. But you just don't see many teams out there with so many kids offered. Unless you are talking about IMG or STA. 

3) Has any team from AZ had this much talent in one team at the same time? If so please share.

4) Baby steps. We all would like to see Saguaro step up and play the big boys. Chandler, Gorman, SJB, etc. For now Liberty and Helix will have to do. 

[Wooderson]

9 hours ago, Las Vegas_JC said:

1) I appreciate that you are on this message board. We need more representatives from AZ and UT. Plus you have great in depth information. The AZ prep report board is pretty dead.

2) I understand that some of the 19 kids with D1 offers at Saguaro have received those offers on their potential or raw talent. But you just don't see many teams out there with so many kids offered. Unless you are talking about IMG or STA. 

3) Has any team from AZ had this much talent in one team at the same time? If so please share.

4) Baby steps. We all would like to see Saguaro step up and play the big boys. Chandler, Gorman, SJB, etc. For now Liberty and Helix will have to do. 

I don't think Saguaro's a particularly talented team but I'm saying that based on actual on-the-field play versus offers.  Has there been an Arizona team that has had as many offers in the past as Saguaro has now?  Probably not, but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison considering that 1) Saguaro starts multiple freshmen which was absolutely unheard of in Phoenix/Tucson until about ten years ago (and is still extremely rare if not prohibited at a lot of 5A/6A schools); and 2) there's a lot more Arizona influence in the collegiate ranks than there was years ago (Charlie Ragle-an assistant at Cal-was a three-time state champ coach at Chaparral down here, Mike Norvel and Bobby Petrino are both former ASU assistants, and Norvell's OC/QB coach was an assistant at Chaparral under Ragle, to name a few).  The former IMO allows Saguaro to have kids get offers based strictly on potential that never come to fruition (look up Robert Branch-Williams and you'll see this in play), and the latter speaks to a level of exposure and connection that was never there before.  

Saguaro's a great program that has accomplished a great deal but they have not earned the right to be included in any national conversation-their record against large school opponents in their home state is abysmal (and have turned down what would be marquee matchups out here with lame excuses about the games not being on ESPN), and I don't put a lot of stock in the OOS slate they've taken on (they got boat-raced by two teams from non-football power states that were not state champions in those states, and struggled at times to beat a Serra program with nine losses over the past two seasons; they did smack the snot out of Valor but that's a program that has never won an out of state game of any great significance).  The offers bring a lot of publicity to the kids and the school but frankly mean very little to me when their in-state opponents for this year averaged five wins apiece in 2017.

[Wooderson]

Just got home from three-way scrimmage between Chandler, Centennial, and Highland  (7-4 last year, played in Mountain Pointe's region last two years). Each groups starters got ten plays each against the other teams' starters, then ten plays each for subs. No contact with quarterbacks,  and QB runs blown dead.

Chandler's 1s scored once vs. Centennial's 1s, lots of short pass plays capped by TD by Liebrock (Texas-bound TE). Probably what most would expect from Chandler, though Centennial did stuff run on three attempts and was applying pressure on Conover.

Centennial's 1s scored once vs Highland 1s, AJ Jackson with big catch-and-run for score. Drove and had another pass dropped in end zone.

Highland 1s get manhandled by Chandler D, were able to pick up a first down but apart from that Chandler D looked nasty and fast.

Centennial 1s got three quick first downs versus Chandler 1s, ended their ten plays on Chandler 5.

Chandler 1s unable to score on Highland 1s, Chandler line looked susceptible to pass rush on this series but at least one of three consecutive "sacks" was off a blitz  (most scrimmages here discourage if not outright prohibit blitzes and stunts). Couple passes from Conover to Liebrock got Chandler couple first downs.

Highland 1s unable to get a first on their ten plays against Centennial 1s.

Only other scoring came from Centennial's 2s against Highland's 2s.

[NotBigdaddybloom]

1 hour ago, Wooderson said:

Just got home from three-way scrimmage between Chandler, Centennial, and Highland  (7-4 last year, played in Mountain Pointe's region last two years). Each groups starters got ten plays each against the other teams' starters, then ten plays each for subs. No contact with quarterbacks,  and QB runs blown dead.

Chandler's 1s scored once vs. Centennial's 1s, lots of short pass plays capped by TD by Liebrock (Texas-bound TE). Probably what most would expect from Chandler, though Centennial did stuff run on three attempts and was applying pressure on Conover.

Centennial's 1s scored once vs Highland 1s, AJ Jackson with big catch-and-run for score. Drove and had another pass dropped in end zone.

Highland 1s get manhandled by Chandler D, were able to pick up a first down but apart from that Chandler D looked nasty and fast.

Centennial 1s got three quick first downs versus Chandler 1s, ended their ten plays on Chandler 5.

Chandler 1s unable to score on Highland 1s, Chandler line looked susceptible to pass rush on this series but at least one of three consecutive "sacks" was off a blitz  (most scrimmages here discourage if not outright prohibit blitzes and stunts). Couple passes from Conover to Liebrock got Chandler couple first downs.

Highland 1s unable to get a first on their ten plays against Centennial 1s.

Only other scoring came from Centennial's 2s against Highland's 2s.

Hmmm.

[Wooderson]

Richard Obert's Arizona Super 10...absolutely SHOCKED he has Centennial at #2 over Saguaro, not because I think it's wrong but because I never thought I'd see the day he'd man-up and buck the supposed consensus in that regard.  Overall though it's a dicey ranking IMO-Salpointe and Perry being greatly over-valued while team's 7-10 could arguably be in slots 3-6.

Link to his Super 10, then my rankings:  https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/high-school/2018/07/31/arizona-high-school-football-rankings-2018-season/871048002/

1.  Chandler-will exhibit state's best pitch-and-catch tandem and feature a Pac-12 bound two-way back.  Still looking for a speedy outside receiver to open the passing game up completely.

2.  Centennial-veteran leadership on both lines, the receiving corps, and the secondary.  Replacing D-1 guys at quarterback and running back; pair of transfers seem to have solved the running back question, while strong 7-on-7 performances give hope to the spot behind center.

3.  Pinnacle-loaded backfield with OU-bound QB Spencer Rattler and three quality running backs.  Lost a lot from already-sketchy defense and saw top receiver and top defensive player transfer to Saguaro.

4.  Williams Field-Have a three-year starter with a state championship back at quarterback, have a national-caliber recruit at safety and a pair of offensive linemen getting D-1 attention.  Inconsistent 2017 offense is cause for concern.

5.  Mountain Pointe-Return leading passer, rusher, and receiver.  Always-tough defense absorbs significant losses, will be building around one of the state's better d-ends in Ken Lofton.

6.  Saguaro-Defense loaded with D-1 prospects and have quality experience on the o-line.  Offensive skill positions are an unknown-graduated a D-1 quarterback and top three receivers and rushers.

7.  Casteel-Return literally every starter from last year's undefeated Class 3A champion, including a Wazzu-bound quarterback.  Jumping two divisions to Class 5A so unknown how will adjust to higher level of competition.

8.  Hamilton-Largest school in state looking to rise-up from past scandal behind multi-time champion coach from Michigan.  Have a good trio of receivers back and a quality back, looking for a quarterback to round out the offense.

9.  Ironwood Ridge-Have some quality returners back on defense, an explosive deep threat at wide receiver, and a 205-pound bulldog taking the reigns at running back.  Replacing a quality starter at quarterback.

10.  Cienega-Team with 24-2 record past two seasons returns an explosive talent at wide receiver and an experienced defense.  They don't return last year's dual-threat QB dynamo now at Arizona.