What up Texas?

[Horsefly]

Just now, DevilDog said:

No problem most would disagree.  I don't think that valley is as big as Texans think.  It only takes 22 kids to ball out.  This isn't the NFL.  I watched SJB vs. Mater Dei.  SJB has 3 kids that goes both ways.  Why didn't they get worn out.  6A is not some elite brand of football most of the kids on the sidelines suck and don't play either.  They just have more of the elite teams in State.  Liberty Hill is better than the majority of the teams in 6A.  Hell Midland Christian been beating 6A playoff teams in El Paso for Years.   Midland Christian is not some magical TAPPS program. 

WK 2.  #5 5A DI Hutto 52 - 51 OT over #3 4A DI Liberty Hill

Wk 3.  #5 5A DI Hutto 42 -39 over 6A Lamar  

True, but Lamar and woodlands are right at the heart of the talent pool in Texas. Their talent across the team runs deeper even than other 6A teams from the valley.  A team going 2 classes up and 6AD1 at that is a tall task.   

[DevilDog]

2 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

True, but Lamar and woodlands are right at the heart of the talent pool in Texas. Their talent across the team runs deeper even than other 6A teams from the valley.  A team going 2 classes up and 6AD1 at that is a tall task.   

I understand that old thinking process. I am saying the results are showing this not to be the case.  How can Liberty Hill go up 2 classes and beat 5A or compete to the end.  WOS is down yet they have taken all the 5A powers they played a true dogfight.  Yet Newton moved up 2 classes and smoked them.  A lot of 5A teams went up 2 classes and beat 6A this year.  

Hutto beat Lamar. 

[DevilDog]

14 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

But the big difference would be the next man up or the non star alongside those players.  The diff would be monumental.  

I respect you too.  I watched Dville 2 weeks ago against Skyline.  Dville has about 43 kids on their whole team.  Explain how they are able to compete in 6A.  Explain how Cocoa beat Abilene in Desoto. I was there.  Abilene was bigger with a a huge roster.  Yet 2 plays with Buie hitting the corner on a sweep and a team that cannot throw somehow found him running past all that 6A depth for another TD.  And that was a small talented public school.  How does a Small Miss School play Aledo tougher than any 5A team in Texas a few years ago?  How did some gimmicky slow ass Arkansas school beat 6A Highland Park at home snapping their 90 game home winning streak when no Texas 6A team didn't all those years?

I don't buy the 6A argument.  I buy they have more elite teams than any class and the Allen's, SLC, LT, WL, Longview ET types are much different than 98% of that class just as Carthage, Aledo and the Newtons are of their class.  All those teams would move up and not miss a beat against the bigger schools. 

[Horsefly]

1 minute ago, DevilDog said:

I understand that old thinking process. I am saying the results are showing this not to be the case.  How can Liberty Hill go up 2 classes and beat 5A or compete to the end.  WOS is down yet they have taken all the 5A powers they played a true dogfight.  Yet Newton moved up 2 classes and smoked them.  A lot of 5A teams went up 2 classes and beat 6A this year.  

Hutto beat Lamar. 

Hutto is a top 5A team and were trailing comfortably in the 1st half.  But to project a top 5 4A team to play Lamar just as competitively is a stretch.  I don’t think they consistently could perform at that level weekly. 

As good as they were, I don’t think DLS in 2015 could sustain playing week in week out in 6A with the elite.

same thing happened with that private school a few years back that decided to play ET, Desoto and coppell in consecutive weeks.  They were worked over and a broken team by the time coppell came. For a team to say they are as good as a 6A team, they should be able to play that teams schedule then. I don’t think liberty hill is as good as Lamar in that sense. 

 

[Horsefly]

1 minute ago, DevilDog said:

I respect you too.  I watched Dville 2 weeks ago against Skyline.  Dville has about 43 kids on their whole team.  Explain how they are able to compete in 6A.  Explain how Cocoa beat Abilene in Desoto. I was there.  Abilene was bigger with a a huge roster.  Yet 2 plays with Buie hitting the corner on a sweep and a team that cannot throw somehow found him running past all that 6A depth for another TD.  And that was a small talented public school.  How does a Small Miss School play Aledo tougher than any 5A team in Texas a few years ago?  How did some gimmicky slow ass Arkansas school beat 6A Highland Park at home snapping their 90 game home winning streak when no Texas 6A team didn't all those years?

I don't buy the 6A argument.  I buy they have more elite teams than any class and the Allen's, SLC, LT, WL, Longview ET types are much different than 98% of that class just as Carthage, Aledo and the Newtons are of their class.  All those teams would move up and not miss a beat against the bigger schools. 

DV has a pool of over 4K kids to choose from so they only need the best 43 or so and only have 1 two way player.  (They have access to some of the best talent in the DFW area) 

Cocoa beat Abilene in a one off game but would have been whipped playing Abilene’s schedule as they didn’t have the depth to compete weekly at that level.  As a program I don’t think they were as good as Abilene. 

[DevilDog]

20 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

Hutto is a top 5A team and were trailing comfortably in the 1st half.  But to project a top 5 4A team to play Lamar just as competitively is a stretch.  I don’t think they consistently could perform at that level weekly. 

As good as they were, I don’t think DLS in 2015 could sustain playing week in week out in 6A with the elite.

same thing happened with that private school a few years back that decided to play ET, Desoto and coppell in consecutive weeks.  They were worked over and a broken team by the time coppell came. For a team to say they are as good as a 6A team, they should be able to play that teams schedule then. I don’t think liberty hill is as good as Lamar in that sense. 

 

Ok my Counter to that.  Would Cocoa have been able to play in 6A?  How did that Top 4A team play that Top 5A team 2 classes bigger closer?   Cocoa opened the season that year against MS. 6A, PA, AAA and Texas 6A and Beat Glades Central for State who also beat Texas 6A Skyline that year in Fl 6-0.  These were talented small public schools.  We have these type in our small classes as well. 

[DevilDog]

10 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

DV has a pool of over 4K kids to choose from so they only need the best 43 or so and only have 1 two way player.  (They have access to some of the best talent in the DFW area) 

Cocoa beat Abilene in a one off game but would have been whipped playing Abilene’s schedule as they didn’t have the depth to compete weekly at that level.  As a program I don’t think they were as good as Abilene. 

I think the 35 kids at Cocoa were just as talented as the 43 at D'ville.  Cocoa would have made the playoffs in damn near every district in 6A that year.  

Pulaski Academy beat the hell out of 6A H.P.  40 13.  Highland Park went 10 -1 vs. Texas 6A.  Now am I to believe that little gimmicky team could not have played H.P. Schedule.  I don't buy it.

And I damn sure would not pick this Team over Carthage or Liberty Hill.  Yet they beat the dog poo out of a Texas 6A Power. Smoked.    This wasn't some other world talented football team.  I will assure you plenty of 4A schools in Texas have better athletes than P.A. 

Yet 4  5A Arkansas Public's their 3rd Classification played them Tougher. 

 

[Horsefly]

1 hour ago, DevilDog said:

I think the 35 kids at Cocoa were just as talented as the 43 at D'ville.  Cocoa would have made the playoffs in damn near every district in 6A that year.  

Pulaski Academy beat the hell out of 6A H.P.  40 13.  Highland Park went 10 -1 vs. Texas 6A.  Now am I to believe that little gimmicky team could not have played H.P. Schedule.  I don't buy it.

And I damn sure would not pick this Team over Carthage or Liberty Hill.  Yet they beat the dog poo out of a Texas 6A Power. Smoked.    This wasn't some other world talented football team.  I will assure you plenty of 4A schools in Texas have better athletes than P.A. 

Yet 4  5A Arkansas Public's their 3rd Classification played them Tougher. 

 

See, I think cocoa would have struggled making the playoffs in the district Abilene was in.  Injuries happen here all the time, teams like cocoa wouldn’t sustain the schedule.  Keep in mind abikene had their best RB out for the cocoa game, then they played plant then Longview before going into district. They wouldn’t sustain with a limited roster. 

Small schools with limited rosters can play one off games w/ bigger schools but don’t have depth to play their schedule.  And I’m talking the major areas not the valley area schools 

[rockinl]

I respect Carthage for being one of the best at their level, and have seen them in person 3 times the past 4 years, but 2018 Longview (and most other years) would embarrass Carthage. Longview by at least 7 TD's.

When you talk 6A/5A, Longview BARELY makes the cut to 6A. Only 52 students separate them from 5A. But I can guarantee you the 22 that step the field at a 6A like Longview, would ALLLL start at a school like Carthage. Carthage has maybe 4 or 5 that would start at Longview.

Chain games mean nothing. Play on the field does. Some of the private schools, and smaller public schools have a very large pool of talent to draw from. School size means nothing when you draw from a talent rich metro area.

This is an old argument. Id bet if you asked Carthage coach Surratt if he wanted a pre district game with Longview or Lufkin, he'd decline. Smart move.

 

[TigerHat]

Probably the best private school in TX right now is 6-0 Houston Strake Jesuit (6A) - which has a quality win over Beaumont West Brook, and stands a reasonable chance of winning their district with Pearland as the top public in the district.

Because of the weakness of R3 D2 I wouldn't be surprised if Strake won the region.

 

[Horsefly]

21 minutes ago, TigerHat said:

Probably the best private school in TX right now is 6-0 Houston Strake Jesuit (6A) - which has a quality win over Beaumont West Brook, and stands a reasonable chance of winning their district with Pearland as the top public in the district.

Because of the weakness of R3 D2 I wouldn't be surprised if Strake won the region.

 

True statement 

[Frosty4024]

6 hours ago, DevilDog said:

Do you know where East Texas is? 😎 Sulphur Springs is like 40 miles from Mt. Pleasant and Titus County?

How much further East do they need to be (La.)  I am from bEast Texas.  I don't know La. But I damn sure know all about bEast Texas and the DFW. 

Sulphur Springs, Hopkins County Texas  (This is the Piney Woods of bEast Texas)

Yes even the teams that suck in East Texas or in fact still in East Texas.  (See Mt. Pleasant for a reference) 🤣

Of course I know...I used to live in Commerce remember?  Ya know...literally down the road from Sulphur Springs.

It was a tongue-in-cheek joke because they're playing (and actually beating the Forney schools) instead of losing to the other East Texas schools.

Real talk...their O is pretty good.  But that team is going to have win shootouts to have a chance in 5A.  The D is still too weak.

[TheMaximumHornetSting]

33 minutes ago, Frosty4024 said:

Of course I know...I used to live in Commerce remember?  Ya know...literally down the road from Sulphur Springs.

It was a tongue-in-cheek joke because they're playing (and actually beating the Forney schools) instead of losing to the other East Texas schools.

Real talk...their O is pretty good.  But that team is going to have win shootouts to have a chance in 5A.  The D is still too weak.

Legit... 

I thought you where from Oklahoma for some reason... 

[HawgGoneIt]

1 minute ago, TheMaximumHornetSting said:

Legit... 

I thought you where from Oklahoma for some reason... 

Yeah. Some god forsaken place like Luther or Dell City. 

 

But for real I thought he was a Louisiana transplant.

 

 

 

[TheMaximumHornetSting]

2 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Yeah. Some god forsaken place like Luther or Dell City. 

 

But for real I thought he was a Louisiana transplant.

 

 

 

Looked into Dell City,TX... 

Damn that place looks like Desolate version of Ludowici.... 

[TheMaximumHornetSting]

14 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Yeah. Some god forsaken place like Luther or Dell City. 

 

But for real I thought he was a Louisiana transplant.

 

 

 

I thought he was from Oklahoma City or Tulsa... 

But moved to Allen or Denton somewhere... 

[Texasball]

3 hours ago, Horsefly said:

DV has a pool of over 4K kids to choose from so they only need the best 43 or so and only have 1 two way player.  (They have access to some of the best talent in the DFW area) 

Cocoa beat Abilene in a one off game but would have been whipped playing Abilene’s schedule as they didn’t have the depth to compete weekly at that level.  As a program I don’t think they were as good as Abilene. 

Consider this - The year that Abilene played Cocoa

1st game - played Franklington LA. - This team would have been either large 4A or very small 5A in Texas. - gave Abilene really good game - went on to win state championship in Louisiana ——Abilene suffered several big injuries in the game.  Including the RB

2nd game - Cocoa - would have been large 4A in Texas -  they was healthy - Abilene was not -  got beat in close games - didn’t have enough depth of players to over come -  Cocoa won state 

3rd game - played Plant FL -  Would have been Texas 6A -  some polls had Plant ranked #1 in the country - Abilene still had a lot of injuries - The RB Simms still was not close to 100%. - Abilene got nice win - plant got beat in state championship 

4th game vs Longview -  Longview won very close game right at the end - LV scored TD - still down by one point the lined up to kick xp - faked it and got it for the win

i was at 3 of those games and watched the other on TV 

All 4 games competitive -  The first two was against smaller schools - injuries were factor  in all 4 games yet all 4 games were very competitive regardless of school size 

Abilene ended up getting beat in 3rd round by SLC

what if that Abilene team had played last years Carthage ?  Carthage had at least the talent of cocoa.

 

[Horsefly]

38 minutes ago, Texasball said:

Consider this - The year that Abilene played Cocoa

1st game - played Franklington LA. - This team would have been either large 4A or very small 5A in Texas. - gave Abilene really good game - went on to win state championship in Louisiana ——Abilene suffered several big injuries in the game.  Including the RB

2nd game - Cocoa - would have been large 4A in Texas -  they was healthy - Abilene was not -  got beat in close games - didn’t have enough depth of players to over come -  Cocoa won state 

3rd game - played Plant FL -  Would have been Texas 6A -  some polls had Plant ranked #1 in the country - Abilene still had a lot of injuries - The RB Simms still was not close to 100%. - Abilene got nice win - plant got beat in state championship 

4th game vs Longview -  Longview won very close game right at the end - LV scored TD - still down by one point the lined up to kick xp - faked it and got it for the win

i was at 3 of those games and watched the other on TV 

All 4 games competitive -  The first two was against smaller schools - injuries were factor  in all 4 games yet all 4 games were very competitive regardless of school size 

Abilene ended up getting beat in 3rd round by SLC

what if that Abilene team had played last years Carthage ?  Carthage had at least the talent of cocoa.

 

But my question is what would cocoa have done playing abilene’s Schedule with those injuries?  They would have been smoked.  Smaller schools can’t sustain a tough 6A schedule.  

Keep in mind by the time Abilene got to district play they were beaten and got whipped by cooper and fell apart in the POs.

[Frosty4024]

1 hour ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Yeah. Some god forsaken place like Luther or Dell City. 

 

But for real I thought he was a Louisiana transplant.

 

 

 

I lived in Shreveport/Bossier 30 years.  Moved to Texas in 2014.  Been there since.

Also was in Tennessee for a year or two if that helps.

[Frosty4024]

1 hour ago, TheMaximumHornetSting said:

I thought he was from Oklahoma City or Tulsa... 

But moved to Allen or Denton somewhere... 

Oklahoma...really...

Well Im in Denton which is about 40 mins away...Does that count?

[TheMaximumHornetSting]

21 minutes ago, Frosty4024 said:

Oklahoma...really...

Well Im in Denton which is about 40 mins away...Does that count?

Yes

[DevilDog]

2 hours ago, Horsefly said:

But my question is what would cocoa have done playing abilene’s Schedule with those injuries?  They would have been smoked.  Smaller schools can’t sustain a tough 6A schedule.  

Keep in mind by the time Abilene got to district play they were beaten and got whipped by cooper and fell apart in the POs.

Abilene got beat up by 2 small Schools their 1st 2 games.  Franklington went to Abilene and beat them up physically and Cocoa came to Texas and beat them in Desoto. So Abilene losing Sims and a couple of others didn't have enough depth to beat a Cocoa team with about 35 players but beat a bigger Plant while still not healthy.  I went to that game Abilene dominated in the 1st half completely.  Yet Cocoa was not out of that game ever. The problem is in HS if you have 1 or 2 stud kids you can dominate regardless of Class.  That Cocoa team would have done very well in 6A in that district with Abilene.   Abilene and Cooper dominated that District and each went 3 rds deep into the playoffs.  Cooper only had 2 losses.  Abilene beat everyone else in that district pretty bad and lost to undefeated Cooper at the time by 7.   They destroyed that district. . 

What I don't get is how can another State have a great Public School the size of Texas 4A and 5A but Texas can never have an elite team.  I told everyone that Newton would smoke those 4A Schools and Carthage is the only 4A Power that had a better win compared to them and at least 4 other 5A powers played Gilmer, WOS and Silsbee.   Yet a Stacked Newton beat each worse than those 5A powers.  They were smoking Gilmer just like Carthage it was like 44 - 14 at one time.   The word on Tamauzia Brown is he has Sunday Morning Football talent. 

Those kids don't stop being great just because the school on the other side has 40 kids that never play in a game but make the School bigger.  I watched Bellevue beat E.T with 2 big time kids yet they were smaller.    Keontay Ingraham don't seem to have a problem dominating as RB for the Longhorns.  That Carthage team last year would have beat both Cocoa and 6A Abilene.  

Funny OOS Football people have higher respect for Texas Small Schools than Texans.  I am not into polls but MAXPREPS had Carthage #60 in the whole USA last year.  Carthage is not smaller than 5A Schools and they would not be worn down by any 5A School. 

Midland Christian would win a lot of districts in El Paso.  They play 6A teams back to back and beat them annually.  Midland Christian is an old TAPPS DII Power and now in TAPPS D1.    Football is not what it used to be in Texas. 

wk 1.  Midland Christian 20  5A DI El Paso Chapin 16

Wk 2. Midland Christian 22 6A El Paso Americas 3

Wk 3.  Midland Christian 35  3A DI Power Wall 34 

Now how can this be explained.  I will assure you 3A WALL would do quite well in those 6A and 5A District(s) in El Paso and Wall is not at the top of the 3A Food Chain.  NEWTON WOULD SMOKE ALL OF THEM. 

NEWTON HAS 3 OF THE TOP 130 Football players on their team.  I am not buying some bigger School automatically beats them with less talent but because they have fatter kids on the OLine they will dominate them. 

Football is no longer 3 yards and a cloud of dust.  So every Cornerback in 6A would shut down Tamauzia Brown and Barlow could not run against them. I watched a small Florida School ran all over 6A Plano East with less talent.

[DevilDog]

I was here and I agree they had about 30+ kids and beat A Tx 6A Power.   Speed killed them.   Cocoa would be a 4A and So were Glades Central who beat Skyline.   So these are small public schools.  But magically Texas can never produce top a 3A - 4A School no matter how talented.  6A is not magical football it just have more of the better teams.  

Cocoa with 35 small kids beat a Tx 6A power with about 60 kids.   Go to the 25 secs mark to see him run away from 6A Depth.  That L.O.S. depth disappeared when speed hit the corner. 

I watched Desoto and Dunne and neither impressed me enough to say they would win 4A or 5A in Texas this year.  Dunne damn sure wouldn't and they didn't embarrass themselves against Desoto.  They didn't look any better than T.C. Cedar Hill and Melissa.  That is the truth.  Matter of fact T.C. Cedar Hill and Melissa had better QB's, RBs and WR's than those teams. 

Buie single handedly smoked them with 2 big plays.   BUIE is not better than Ingraham and the QB on that team could not touch the kid from Carthage.  But Carthage could never beat a 6A power.  I don't buy it.  A few years ago I watch Dallas Jesuit go toe to toe with St. Joes Prep, PA.  the Redskin and I.  Weeks later I watched Argyle vs. Gilmer with 2 DI kids in their backfield one a LB for Arizona right now and I told Texasball there is no way in hell that Jesuit team a 6A Playoff team would beat either of them. 

 

[DevilDog]

I watched Brandon Carter at E.T. Take snaps and run all over the field by direct snapping it to him strictly because he was the best athlete.  Same with Kyler Murray.  But somehow this kid because he has a 3 instead of a 6 in front of his A along with his other D1 kids. They would get killed by 5A and 6A.  I used to believe it too till I started to go and watch all the elite teams regardless of Class.  2 others on this team along with him are 3 of the top 130 football kids in all of Texas this year.   I think any coach could figure out how to get him the ball against a 5A or 6A team.  I would bet on him over the kid on the other side. 

 

[Horsefly]

I didn’t say they couldn’t beat some 6As, it’s who they beat or how we define a team being “ as good as” is what I objected to. 

My point was specifically the h2h comparison between woodlands and Lamar to liberty hill.  

the 2d thing I objected to is how we define being “as good as”.  A team can beat someone in a one game series, but to be “as good as” also means they have the depth, durability and coaching to play in the team we are comparing them to schedule. These smaller schools can’t do that.  That’s why when cocoa started playing these big school schedules back to back they started losing. Same would be true for Carthage, Argyle, newton, etc. 

PROJECT A MATCHUP
neutral field
[2018] Carthage (TX) 35, [2018] Trinity (Euless, TX) 28

The same computer believes this.  Could it happen in a one game series where they play n Carthage goes back to their schedule? Maybe but doubtful. Does it mean that Carthage is “as good as” ET?  No it doesn’t. Carthage could not replace ET in 6A and do as well and compete on a week to week basis.