HawgGoneIt Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 We find ourselves bickering much over political views, and find ourselves oft divided so fiercely that it's difficult to think we can ever find our way back together again. I have been guilty of letting these thoughts seep into my mind at times as well. I visited a somber place today, and did my soul searching. I would urge anyone to visit this place if they are feeling divided from their brothers. I have never felt more somber, or been more introspective than I was today as I visited Andersonville National Cemetery. On this week, they had the Avenue Of Flags displayed, which I'm sure added to my experience here. I should be ashamed that I've lived only 80 miles from this place for much of my life, and this was my first visit there. As you first enter the cemetery, and set foot onto the mass graves of over 13,000 Americans... It can't be rightly explained, the feeling that comes over you as you wander through and read the names on the markers. Markers that are set so close together that it seems strange and difficult to understand, until you look at the plaques that explain why these particular markers are set in this manner. These men are buried that close and even closer together than that in trenches. Many unknown, many using aliases, and many that were proud of their state, name and rank thus it is displayed accordingly on a monument here. Eventually as you walk through these thousands of markers, they finally give way to numerous normally spaced graves of service men and women that have died in the years since the Civil War. As one wanders through this place and witnesses the multitudes of servicemen and women that are interred here, you try to make mental notes of the names inscribed upon the stones, but you still can't quite shake the mass graves from your mind. Among these normally spaced stones, stand monuments from the states that lost the men that are interred in the mass graves. Illinois, with their native son the president during this time stands as one of the more poignant as it carries the words of president Lincoln on either side. There are so many feelings to process here. I'm thankful that the Avenue of Flags were on display this weekend to help keep me near my center. At Andersonville National Cemetery, the Avenue of Flags are flown for the National Former P.O.W. Recognition Day (today) along with four other dates of national significance. Memorial Day, Independence Day. National P.O.W./M.I.A. Recognition Day and Veteran's Day Weekends. If you can go, I suggest trying to make it on one of those days so perhaps the flags there can help keep you centered as they did me. The National Prisoner of War Museum was great as well. You get a whole different feeling of indebtedness to these men and women that have been captured defending us, and our collective values. Many of them share how they felt as they were being captured, and during their imprisonment in almost every war since WWII on poignant videos placed in various displays throughout the museum. If you are ever anywhere near this National Historic Site, it is well worth the time and fuel to visit. I went thinking I'd spend a couple of hours there and ended up spending most of the day right there. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Andersonville is a largely forgotten chapter of our history - it is simply too horrible for us to want to remember. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaximumHornetSting Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Bormio said: Andersonville is a largely forgotten chapter of our history - it is simply too horrible for us to want to remember. American vs American,Brother vs Brother,Neighbor vs Neighbor.... Nobody wants to remember it.... But unfortunately those who dont learn from History are doomed to repeat it.... We're about as divided now as they where back then.... Only thing that hasnt happened yet is some sort of Political Uprising.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 We constantly are reminded of the Civil War, awful as it was. The history, the battles, the differing views etc are well known. Andersonville is different. I grew up and went to school in the North - virtually never mentioned even there. It seems there has been a concerted effort to forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted April 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bormio said: Andersonville is a largely forgotten chapter of our history - it is simply too horrible for us to want to remember. I agree. That, I think is the reason I always found a different day trip to make any time I had the thought of going there. For most of my life, I found reasons to go a different direction, to a different park or whatever. We would do well to remember what can happen when brother fights brother. The prison grounds brings an entirely different feeling than either the POW Museum or the cemetery. I was pleased to have the opportunity to speak with a retired history teacher from Wyoming that was stopping off on his way to Cherokee N.C. before returning to Wyoming from wintering in Florida, and an Osage Nation Native American from Oklahoma over working on the Sable Trail Pipe Line in Alabama and visiting the site on his day off. We all agreed that we didn't know what to expect and then discovered much the same feelings came up in all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 And I do not mean to imply that Union treatment of Confederate POWs was much better, because it was not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted April 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, Bormio said: And I do not mean to imply that Union treatment of Confederate POWs was much better, because it was not. That was something that I learned more about today as well. Roughly 15% of all captured Union soldiers died in captivity, and 12% of Confederate soldiers died in captivity. Not a huge divide there in percentage of men dying in POW camps. A huge number of the Union men all died right there at Andersonville in the last 14 months of the war though. I think that is what sets it apart from the Union camps. Of 30,000 Union POW's dying in camps, near 14,000 died right there in 14 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Not to excuse Andersonville, as it was horrible, but I think there were a couple reasons it got really bad late in the war. The south Georgia location made it harder for the Confederate government to oversee. More importantly, Confederate troops were starving - hard to feed POWs in that case. In fact, Union camps got worse because Stanton reduced rations to what Rebel troops were known to be getting in terms of food. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Georgia boy and proud of it but Andersonville is not something to be proud of. From what I've read, I don't really think the treatment of prisoners was intentionally poor but more a function of no available resources. It seems as though the Southern troops were only marginally better off than the prisoners and that probably was due more to not being crammed in as tight. MHS, I would tend to disagree about being as divided. There are divisive problems to be sure but underneath I tend to believe we all feel that we are Americans. At the time of the Great Northern Aggression/War Between the States/Civil War depending on your persuasion, the feeling of national belonging didn't exist as it does today. Back then was still too close to the nation's founding and people had much more allegiance to their state than their country. I tend to believe that is reversed today. The Great War, WWII, Korea, all these cemented the feeling of working together to combat a great evil. The population migrations after WWII from the south to the north and back again weakened the local ties. I am not saying people don't still have pride in their home or their heritage, just that in many cases identification and affiliation with those areas are not as tight. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Ironically, it was the Civil War that made us one country. Before then, we were Virginians, New Yorkers and even Georgians. After it we were Americans. 30 years after the Civil War, Southern boys were dying under Old Glory in the Spanish-American War. The Civil War remains the sentinel event in American history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 On 4/9/2017 at 10:20 PM, HawgGoneIt said: We find ourselves bickering much over political views, and find ourselves oft divided so fiercely that it's difficult to think we can ever find our way back together again. I have been guilty of letting these thoughts seep into my mind at times as well. I visited a somber place today, and did my soul searching. I would urge anyone to visit this place if they are feeling divided from their brothers. I have never felt more somber, or been more introspective than I was today as I visited Andersonville National Cemetery. On this week, they had the Avenue Of Flags displayed, which I'm sure added to my experience here. I should be ashamed that I've lived only 80 miles from this place for much of my life, and this was my first visit there. As you first enter the cemetery, and set foot onto the mass graves of over 13,000 Americans... It can't be rightly explained, the feeling that comes over you as you wander through and read the names on the markers. Markers that are set so close together that it seems strange and difficult to understand, until you look at the plaques that explain why these particular markers are set in this manner. These men are buried that close and even closer together than that in trenches. Many unknown, many using aliases, and many that were proud of their state, name and rank thus it is displayed accordingly on a monument here. Eventually as you walk through these thousands of markers, they finally give way to numerous normally spaced graves of service men and women that have died in the years since the Civil War. As one wanders through this place and witnesses the multitudes of servicemen and women that are interred here, you try to make mental notes of the names inscribed upon the stones, but you still can't quite shake the mass graves from your mind. Among these normally spaced stones, stand monuments from the states that lost the men that are interred in the mass graves. Illinois, with their native son the president during this time stands as one of the more poignant as it carries the words of president Lincoln on either side. There are so many feelings to process here. I'm thankful that the Avenue of Flags were on display this weekend to help keep me near my center. At Andersonville National Cemetery, the Avenue of Flags are flown for the National Former P.O.W. Recognition Day (today) along with four other dates of national significance. Memorial Day, Independence Day. National P.O.W./M.I.A. Recognition Day and Veteran's Day Weekends. If you can go, I suggest trying to make it on one of those days so perhaps the flags there can help keep you centered as they did me. The National Prisoner of War Museum was great as well. You get a whole different feeling of indebtedness to these men and women that have been captured defending us, and our collective values. Many of them share how they felt as they were being captured, and during their imprisonment in almost every war since WWII on poignant videos placed in various displays throughout the museum. If you are ever anywhere near this National Historic Site, it is well worth the time and fuel to visit. I went thinking I'd spend a couple of hours there and ended up spending most of the day right there. It may unsomber you a tad to know! That William T. Sherman is the main reason why most of those headstones are in Andersonville! He was the mastermind behind no prisoner exchange, the cutting off of supplies to the South by burning railroads and bridges! And not attempting to rescue those souls, during his SCORCHED EARTH trek through MY state! I've also been to GETTYSBURG and ANTIETAM! Where there are beautiful cemeteries for UNION soldiers, and mass graves for the Confederate dead! And then, there are you homies who try at every turn, to desecrate and remove Confederate war memorials! Jist for shits and giggles! 100% of slaves were owned by 2% of the Southern population! And NONE of those fought for the South, as they were able to pay someone ELSE to fight their fight! Contrary to popular belief in the NORTH! Confederate soldiers were fighting for STATES RIGHTS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 Rab is not wrong - Sherman was in part responsible. He intended to destroy the ability of the South to make war. Hence the destruction of supplies/crops/livestock. No men going back to fight for the South. And it was brutally effective (and allowed the war to end sooner). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 On 4/9/2017 at 10:56 PM, TheMaximumHornetSting said: American vs American,Brother vs Brother,Neighbor vs Neighbor.... Nobody wants to remember it.... But unfortunately those who dont learn from History are doomed to repeat it.... We're about as divided now as they where back then.... Only thing that hasnt happened yet is some sort of Political Uprising.... WELL, I have three airline tickets for Cali, Nu Yok, and Vermont, for when they want to secede from the Union! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted April 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 7 hours ago, ORabidOne said: It may unsomber you a tad to know! That William T. Sherman is the main reason why most of those headstones are in Andersonville! He was the mastermind behind no prisoner exchange, the cutting off of supplies to the South by burning railroads and bridges! And not attempting to rescue those souls, during his SCORCHED EARTH trek through MY state! I've also been to GETTYSBURG and ANTIETAM! Where there are beautiful cemeteries for UNION soldiers, and mass graves for the Confederate dead! And then, there are you homies who try at every turn, to desecrate and remove Confederate war memorials! Jist for shits and giggles! 100% of slaves were owned by 2% of the Southern population! And NONE of those fought for the South, as they were able to pay someone ELSE to fight their fight! Contrary to popular belief in the NORTH! Confederate soldiers were fighting for STATES RIGHTS! Well sir, I'll start by saying, I never did expect that you would be one seeking introspection, or ever attempt to be anywhere near the center, so no surprise from me at all. Why would I be "unsombered" to know that? There is nothing that could make the memorials at Andersonville, Gettysburg or any other such place less somber. I know and understand the reasons for the War Between The States and have heard it told from every angle and know that there is some truth to them all, just like everything else in this world involving people. While the general reason for anything could be claimed as a collective reason among an entire group, one could carve any group into smaller groups and get actors of numerous other beliefs and actions. I also know first hand about desecration of war memorials. I go by our local cemetery here in Autreyville and see what was caused by vandalism fairly often. I remember when many of the graves there had stones with the Unknown markers on them and they got destroyed and are now just generic wooden crosses.Greenfield Church acted as a hospital during the Civil War, and those graves hold the remains of both Union and Confederate soldiers. The same type of ignorance brought that on that vandalism is the same type that causes you to float through threads like this and post crap desecrating the intended meaning of it with garbage incendiary terminology like "And then, there are you homies who try at every turn, to desecrate and remove Confederate war memorials!" Finally, we get to some of the reason I posted this thread for people to ponder. The states rights, and general political ideology differences that were in part a cause of the Civil War are still an exact same point of contention today. I do appreciate you pointing out this for sure, and was exactly why I started this thread, I think many of the guys posting here would be surprised to know which side of the Civil War they would be more aligned with politically today. Now there's some stuff for one seriously ponder over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 On 4/9/2017 at 10:56 PM, TheMaximumHornetSting said: American vs American,Brother vs Brother,Neighbor vs Neighbor.... Nobody wants to remember it.... But unfortunately those who dont learn from History are doomed to repeat it.... We're about as divided now as they where back then.... Only thing that hasnt happened yet is some sort of Political Uprising.... Where have YOU BEEN pilgrim? The DEMS have taken over the FBI, CIA, NSA, and a majority of the federal district court judges in this country! And they STILL have their panties in a wad, that they couldn't steal a majority in the Supreme Court! And only complacency and supreme arrogance, kept them from creating an ANARCHY in 2016! And there is a DEM riot EVERY TIME a Conservative attempts to hold a rally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 On 4/9/2017 at 11:30 PM, HawgGoneIt said: That was something that I learned more about today as well. Roughly 15% of all captured Union soldiers died in captivity, and 12% of Confederate soldiers died in captivity. Not a huge divide there in percentage of men dying in POW camps. A huge number of the Union men all died right there at Andersonville in the last 14 months of the war though. I think that is what sets it apart from the Union camps. Of 30,000 Union POW's dying in camps, near 14,000 died right there in 14 months. The WHOLE SOUTH was STARVING due to blockades, thus the large number of Northern prisoner losses at the end! Confederate prisoner loses were due to NORTHERN BARBARISM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 On 4/10/2017 at 11:53 AM, Fred said: Georgia boy and proud of it but Andersonville is not something to be proud of. From what I've read, I don't really think the treatment of prisoners was intentionally poor but more a function of no available resources. It seems as though the Southern troops were only marginally better off than the prisoners and that probably was due more to not being crammed in as tight. MHS, I would tend to disagree about being as divided. There are divisive problems to be sure but underneath I tend to believe we all feel that we are Americans. At the time of the Great Northern Aggression/War Between the States/Civil War depending on your persuasion, the feeling of national belonging didn't exist as it does today. Back then was still too close to the nation's founding and people had much more allegiance to their state than their country. I tend to believe that is reversed today. The Great War, WWII, Korea, all these cemented the feeling of working together to combat a great evil. The population migrations after WWII from the south to the north and back again weakened the local ties. I am not saying people don't still have pride in their home or their heritage, just that in many cases identification and affiliation with those areas are not as tight. I suggest that you tell this BULLSHIT to Chucky Shumer and Nancy Legosi! It's April 12th, and PRESIDENT Trump STILL doesn't have all of his pieces in place in the administration, due to the foot dragging by the Dumbocrat Party! They're too FOOLISH to realize that obstructionism is gravely harming the security of the United States of America! But they DON'T GIVE a RAT'S ASS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 19 hours ago, HawgGoneIt said: Well sir, I'll start by saying, I never did expect that you would be one seeking introspection, or ever attempt to be anywhere near the center, so no surprise from me at all. Why would I be "unsombered" to know that? There is nothing that could make the memorials at Andersonville, Gettysburg or any other such place less somber. I know and understand the reasons for the War Between The States and have heard it told from every angle and know that there is some truth to them all, just like everything else in this world involving people. While the general reason for anything could be claimed as a collective reason among an entire group, one could carve any group into smaller groups and get actors of numerous other beliefs and actions. I also know first hand about desecration of war memorials. I go by our local cemetery here in Autreyville and see what was caused by vandalism fairly often. I remember when many of the graves there had stones with the Unknown markers on them and they got destroyed and are now just generic wooden crosses.Greenfield Church acted as a hospital during the Civil War, and those graves hold the remains of both Union and Confederate soldiers. The same type of ignorance brought that on that vandalism is the same type that causes you to float through threads like this and post crap desecrating the intended meaning of it with garbage incendiary terminology like "And then, there are you homies who try at every turn, to desecrate and remove Confederate war memorials!" Finally, we get to some of the reason I posted this thread for people to ponder. The states rights, and general political ideology differences that were in part a cause of the Civil War are still an exact same point of contention today. I do appreciate you pointing out this for sure, and was exactly why I started this thread, I think many of the guys posting here would be surprised to know which side of the Civil War they would be more aligned with politically today. Now there's some stuff for one seriously ponder over. I had GREAT introspection, when I visited the cemetery for the Bataan Death March, in Manila, Philippines! But it is 100% FALSE, that Southern fighting men, went to war to preserve SLAVERY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 3 hours ago, ORabidOne said: I had GREAT introspection, when I visited the cemetery for the Bataan Death March, in Manila, Philippines! But it is 100% FALSE, that Southern fighting men, went to war to preserve SLAVERY! Yea, you may wanna brush up on the "declaration of causes" that the states of MS, TX, GA and SC issued stating why they were seceding from the union and slavery most definitely was a major reason. Here are the documents in their entirety those in power decided the reason for secession and subsequent war, the commoner just carried out those duties. Slave labor was the foundation to economic power in the south for the white elite and the preservation and expansion of slave policies was key to continued prosperity. I don't know why folks make a big deal about it and try to revise history. http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 On 4/9/2017 at 11:12 PM, HawgGoneIt said: I agree. That, I think is the reason I always found a different day trip to make any time I had the thought of going there. For most of my life, I found reasons to go a different direction, to a different park or whatever. We would do well to remember what can happen when brother fights brother. The prison grounds brings an entirely different feeling than either the POW Museum or the cemetery. I was pleased to have the opportunity to speak with a retired history teacher from Wyoming that was stopping off on his way to Cherokee N.C. before returning to Wyoming from wintering in Florida, and an Osage Nation Native American from Oklahoma over working on the Sable Trail Pipe Line in Alabama and visiting the site on his day off. We all agreed that we didn't know what to expect and then discovered much the same feelings came up in all of us. When brother fights brother in 2017! It's called SYRIA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 11 hours ago, Horsefly said: Yea, you may wanna brush up on the "declaration of causes" that the states of MS, TX, GA and SC issued stating why they were seceding from the union and slavery most definitely was a major reason. Here are the documents in their entirety those in power decided the reason for secession and subsequent war, the commoner just carried out those duties. Slave labor was the foundation to economic power in the south for the white elite and the preservation and expansion of slave policies was key to continued prosperity. I don't know why folks make a big deal about it and try to revise history. http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html Those proclamations are always issued by the wealthy! They didn't stand for the rank and file of the state! Do you think that NORTHERNER Ted Turner, would have permitted THIS paragraph in his Civil War flick GETTSYBURG, if it weren't the GOSPEL! E. Thomas Howell asks a captured Confederate soldier, why do you fight this war for slavery? The soldier answers. "We ain't fightin for no darkies!" We are fightin for our RIGHTS!(meaning STATES RIGHTS) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 On 4/9/2017 at 11:16 PM, Bormio said: And I do not mean to imply that Union treatment of Confederate POWs was much better, because it was not. Yet, there are NO Civil War prison monuments in the NORTH, of which I'm aware! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 On 4/10/2017 at 0:47 PM, Bormio said: Ironically, it was the Civil War that made us one country. Before then, we were Virginians, New Yorkers and even Georgians. After it we were Americans. 30 years after the Civil War, Southern boys were dying under Old Glory in the Spanish-American War. The Civil War remains the sentinel event in American history. We're Americans, until the rubber hits the road! And these Notherners hafta pay up for being citizens of the UNITED STATES! How many anti war protests were there in the SOUTH during the Vietnam War? All of those bitches who burned their draft cards and went to Canada, were NOT from the SOUTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, ORabidOne said: Those proclamations are always issued by the wealthy! They didn't stand for the rank and file of the state! Do you think that NORTHERNER Ted Turner, would have permitted THIS paragraph in his Civil War flick GETTSYBURG, if it weren't the GOSPEL! E. Thomas Howell asks a captured Confederate soldier, why do you fight this war for slavery? The soldier answers. "We ain't fightin for no darkies!" We are fightin for our RIGHTS!(meaning STATES RIGHTS) Who cares what the rank and file believe. The wealthy and elite dictate policy, just like they always have. The civil war was " a rich man's war and a poor man's fight". They always are. Surely you don't think common folks like yourself make and influence US policy? Did you fight for your interests or the elite's interest in Nam? Did you have a choice either way? We sent kids to Iraq, many reciting the oath of office on a call of duty to support and defend the constitution, when in reality they were fighting to preserve the elites economic interests in oil in the ME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Thanks for sharing Hawg ive never been to Andersonville but my great, great, great grandad was one of the 13,000 to perish there (although most of my ancestors were southern) pics remind me of the American Cemetary in Normandy, which I have visited -- very sobering prisoner conditions that seem barbaric to us were fairly normal back then, and has been pointed out, the South was having trouble feeding its troops and citizens, so we're more challenged than the north to provide humane conditions. Also, I don't know this but the north could spread prisoners out across a broad area without fear of invasion, while every state in the south saw battles, so I suspect that the aggregated conditions of their prisoners contributed to the slightly higher mortality rate i can't find the exact figures but I believe the mortality rate for American prisoners in the revolutionary war were much higher -- most were kept in crowded barges around New York, and the British didn't recognize them as captured soldiers, but rather rebellious criminals and modern times didn't cure all ills as the Japanese in WWII we're horrific jailers with even cases of cannibalism 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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