noonereal Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 27 minutes ago, Pops said: he might shake the company down for some money but he has no case -- especially against United. He might have an excessive force claim against the cops but that would just be confirmation that our society has turned into one big vagina if he wins an excessive force claim, it then means the cops were wrong not sure a vagina has any relevance here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossacks Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, noonereal said: again, how does any of this make him responsible for the actions of the airline? That is what the suit would be about. The action of the airline. It is of no relevance what is in his past only what happened that day. You're right. He was asked to leave (which is within the airlines right, maybe not the best business) and refused (his action). So now he is trespassing and removed. Can you name the three other people who were asked to leave and complied? I can't, because they didn't create a disturbance. They complied. He didn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Just now, Cossacks said: You're right. He was asked to leave (which is within the airlines right, maybe not the best business) and refused (his action). So now he is trespassing and removed. Can you name the three other people who were asked to leave and complied? I can't, because they didn't create a disturbance. They complied. He didn't. that the others left is also of no relevance the issue is, was excessive force used when he refused or not ?(I have expressed no opinion on this, I am just speaking to how this needs be viewed in a reasoned manner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 I was taught in business that the customer is always right. For example, as a teen working in a grocery store, I was told if some little old lady fussed over the price of a can of beans that rang up .99 but she said the price marked on the shelf was .69 and upon looking at the shelf as an employee, then seeing it was canned corn right beside the beans that was .69... just give her the beans for .69 and then move the price marker a little further down on the shelf. That type sentiment has rang true throughout most every different type endeavour I have been a part of. Of course, this is subjective and needs to be within reason. Hiding stuff in the fine print on the back of an airfare ticket so that you can then, if necessary, forcibly remove a passenger that is already sitting in their seat is just plain wrong. That man was never a problem until he discovered there weren't any flights to get him home in time for work...which is why he was on the flight he was on to begin with. His past, while public record, is irrelevant in the way the airline handled this situation. If they needed the seats, they shouldn't have let the paying passengers ever board to begin with. The entire situation was ridiculous and totally avoidable if handled differently. As for the officers that roughed him up, that is an entirely separate thing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossacks Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 minute ago, noonereal said: that the others left is also of no relevance the issue is, was excessive force used when he refused or not ?(I have expressed no opinion on this, I am just speaking to how this needs be viewed in a reasoned manner) I believe the force used falls well within Graham based on the circumstances and totality of the circumstances which so far have been shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossacks Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 minute ago, HawgGoneIt said: I was taught in business that the customer is always right. For example, as a teen working in a grocery store, I was told if some little old lady fussed over the price of a can of beans that rang up .99 but she said the price marked on the shelf was .69 and upon looking at the shelf as an employee, then seeing it was canned corn right beside the beans that was .69... just give her the beans for .69 and then move the price marker a little further down on the shelf. That type sentiment has rang true throughout most every different type endeavour I have been a part of. Of course, this is subjective and needs to be within reason. Hiding stuff in the fine print on the back of an airfare ticket so that you can then, if necessary, forcibly remove a passenger that is already sitting in their seat is just plain wrong. That man was never a problem until he discovered there weren't any flights to get him home in time for work...which is why he was on the flight he was on to begin with. His past, while public record, is irrelevant in the way the airline handled this situation. If they needed the seats, they shouldn't have let the paying passengers ever board to begin with. The entire situation was ridiculous and totally avoidable if handled differently. As for the officers that roughed him up, that is an entirely separate thing to me. I think it is common knowledge for anyone flying that you could potentially get bumped. Now my issue with United is this should have been determined and dealt with prior to boarding at the gate (as seeems customary). That was a bad call. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, Cossacks said: I believe the force used falls well within Graham based on the circumstances and totality of the circumstances which so far have been shown. personally, I think you slap the cops on the hand and tell the guy to grow the F up... but that is just me being emotional Depending on what they said and then he said, I might not even slap the cops hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 16 minutes ago, noonereal said: if he wins an excessive force claim, it then means the cops were wrong not sure a vagina has any relevance here... If he wins an excessive force claim, then the vagina is all that was apparently relevant the guy legally had to get off the plane -- he refused to recognize the authority of the crew in the plane (that's a safety hazard besides inconveniencing everyone else including the planeload if people waiting for a crew) it's all in video -- the cops basically did what they needed to do to pry him from seat and drag him off this wasn't a Rodney king thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Cossacks said: I think it is common knowledge for anyone flying that you could potentially get bumped. Now my issue with United is this should have been determined and dealt with prior to boarding at the gate (as seeems customary). That was a bad call. this is the problem... why is an airline allowed to sell tickets to the same seat twice? never had this problem at a concert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Cossacks said: I think it is common knowledge for anyone flying that you could potentially get bumped. Now my issue with United is this should have been determined and dealt with prior to boarding at the gate (as seeems customary). That was a bad call. I bet it's likely that crew of 4 was a late add (after boarding) that the agents dealt with the best way they could, given a directive to get them on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Just now, noonereal said: this is the problem... why is an airline allowed to sell tickets to the same seat twice? never had this problem at a concert Because there is a historical fall off rate if airlines couldn't do that, that would cost them billions which would be passed on to consumer (has to be or then there'd be no airlines) a concert is not a business, more of a snobby hobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 10 minutes ago, Pops said: If he wins an excessive force claim, then the vagina is all that was apparently relevant the guy legally had to get off the plane -- he refused to recognize the authority of the crew in the plane (that's a safety hazard besides inconveniencing everyone else including the planeload if people waiting for a crew) it's all in video -- the cops basically did what they needed to do to pry him from seat and drag him off this wasn't a Rodney king thing there are rightful bounds to what force can be used when I am not against the cops actions unless it crossed a line.I do not know if it did. From what I saw, it was poorly handled but so what. Don't be a jerk it does't happen. You just don't scrap the law and yell vagina though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thc6795 Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 My bet this never see's the court room. As it is way to much time wasted on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 If this wasn't a Rodney King thing, and the officers and airlines were all so right... Why were so many of the fellow passengers appalled at what happened? If it's a foregone conclusion that passengers know there is a chance they may get bumped... Why when reporters went to airports and asked people that were on the terminal about it, did none of them know this? They all also said they never read the back. Most said that if the airline was doing something that they would assume the airline had some right to do so though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Just now, Pops said: Because there is a historical fall off rate if airlines couldn't do that, that would cost them billions which would be passed on to consumer (has to be or then there'd be no airlines) a concert is not a business, more of a snobby hobby LOL, a concert is not a business? How ya figure? Must be a cum laude thing that I missed. BTW, with the fees in place for changing or canceling a flight as they are now, the airline does not need to over book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, Pops said: a concert is not a business, more of a snobby hobby and a snobby hobby? WTF?! Where did you ever get this stereotype? This is one I never came across before. I don't know, you ever been to a Dead concert? Not a lot of snobs there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thc6795 Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, noonereal said: and a snobby hobby? WTF?! Where did you ever get this stereotype? This is one I never came across before. I don't know, you ever been to a Dead concert? Not a lot of snobs there. or Folyd, Metalica, Rush? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulu1128 Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 52 minutes ago, noonereal said: if he wins an excessive force claim, it then means the cops were wrong not sure a vagina has any relevance here... An excessive force claim against the cops is his only legal option. If he chooses to sue UA, he'll lose bigly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thc6795 Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Just now, zulu1128 said: An excessive force claim against the cops is his only legal option. If he chooses to sue UA, he'll lose bigly. He will lose excess force as well. He broke at least 3 laws. BTW he is still alive. It has already been proven you wont win an excess force case even if the end result was death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, noonereal said: there are rightful bounds to what force can be used when I am not against the cops actions unless it crossed a line.I do not know if it did. From what I saw, it was poorly handled but so what. Don't be a jerk it does't happen. You just don't scrap the law and yell vagina though. I'm not scrapping the law and yelling vagina i do know because I saw that was NOT an excessive use of force -- at the point where he is refusing to yield to authorities that are rightfully asking him to leave and he is causing 200 people around him to be delayed plus 200 more for the crew he's holding up, I'm perfectly fine if they taser him and so should be anyone that does not have a vagina 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 2 hours ago, noonereal said: LOL, a concert is not a business? How ya figure? Must be a cum laude thing that I missed. BTW, with the fees in place for changing or canceling a flight as they are now, the airline does not need to over book. What do you know about airline economics? Airlines may overbook by 10% or so on certain flights, and have all the information in the world to know historical drop off rates. Not selling the same seat twice could cause 20-30 less seats per flight sold, turning the industry from profitable to unprofitable. If this was some sort of FAA rule that hit the whole industry at once, they would most certainly treat it as a price advance, just as if there was an extra government tax applied. That causes everyone that flies, all 350 million of us, to pay 10% more every ticket we purchase. Just because some jackass made a scene that got caught on youtube? No thanks -- I'd rather the industry stay efficient That said, as I've conveyed already, if I ran an airline, and especially THAT airline right now, I would want a full review of prodedures and policies and make damned sure that we had in place a system that would CERTAINLY buy people off a plane to avoid those scenes. They can raise their buy-off ceiling to (ie) $2k, which is in flight credits, not cash, and cost the company (and industry) only a fraction of your suggestion IMHO to get to the same point. As I said, the weird thing to me on the Chicago/ United story is that there were 200 people that said no to $800 in credit for what a shorter hop than an LA-SF flight. Seems very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 2 hours ago, noonereal said: and a snobby hobby? WTF?! Where did you ever get this stereotype? This is one I never came across before. I don't know, you ever been to a Dead concert? Not a lot of snobs there. I'm just not picturing you at Dead concerts as much as piano concertos Am I wrong? Don't take offense -- you are one of my favorite Liberal Elitists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thc6795 Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, Pops said: I'm just not picturing you at Dead concerts as much as piano concertos Am I wrong? Don't take offense -- you are one of my favorite Liberal Elitists oh no nor was definitely a deadhead. He was a hippie for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 41 minutes ago, Pops said: I'm just not picturing you at Dead concerts as much as piano concertos today, absolutely but by the time I was 25, Ill bet I'd been to more rock concerts than most have been to in their lifetime... still does not speak to your ridiculous post that because one loves music they are somehow a snob. classical, rock, jazz whatever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, noonereal said: today, absolutely but by the time I was 25, Ill bet I'd been to more rock concerts than most have been to in their lifetime... still does not speak to your ridiculous post that because one loves music they are somehow a snob. classical, rock, jazz whatever Perhaps I have a bit of reverse snobbery to someone speaking about concerts because I'm tone deaf and had a note sent home to my parents in 6th grade recommending that I NOT pursue anything related to music. I do think I have rhythm and can dance and no tone test has ever proved that otherwise, but my wife definitely does not share my opinion of my prowess on the dance floor. But, c'mon, you just wrote a week or two ago about attending some concert that I'm confident did not feature rock music with the President of ACLU in NYC -- so, realize, you are coloring my perspective a bit as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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