The greatest exercise in futility in history is occurring right now..

[World Citizen]

1 hour ago, Belly Bob said:

That's not in dispute. 

What's in dispute is whether what I wrote implied that Trump supporters are Nazis. 

To compare x to y isn't to imply that x is y. 

Merry Christmas. 

They did the same thing to me a while back.  Claimed I said something I didn't.  

Tough to see zulu struggle so hard, as effort is not a normal thing with him.  

[Atticus Finch]

12 minutes ago, World Citizen said:

But zulu claims others are having a hard time.   🤡

Because he can't do anything else.

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, World Citizen said:

They did the same thing to me a while back.  Claimed I said something I didn't.  

Tough to see zulu struggle so hard, as effort is not a normal thing with him.  

That doesn't surprise me.

And it's an ironic inversion for a Trump supporter. I'm not used to conservatives telling me that though I may have said x, what I really said was y. 

[zulu1128]

Encouraging to see WC finally show up with the completely made up anecdote to save the day after Bob raised the help flag. 🤣

Throwing in the "hE's uh DrumPf sUppORteR" was also a nice touch. Looks like everyone is staying on brand pretty well here. 

✌️

[Newbie]

22 hours ago, RedZone said:

You can't be the "lol" guy all your career and then be expected to be taken seriously discussing logical consequence.

It looks funny. lol

 

Of course you can 

Many Intelligent people do not lack a funny bone.   

If you think they are exclusive which one do you think you are missing?

 

Ps in case you didn’t notice, ‘both’ does in fact work there 👍

🍿

[Belly Bob]

18 minutes ago, zulu1128 said:

Looks like everyone is staying on brand pretty well here. 

✌️

Thanks for checking in and commenting on the implication of such. 

[zulu1128]

10 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Thanks for checking in and commenting on the implication of such. 

Thanks for staying here waiting for me. 🤣

[Belly Bob]

On 12/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, 15yds4gibberish said:

@Belly Bob, a really fine set of posts on this topic, thank you.

I think I'd go a little further than just calling it an embarrassment though. Moral collapse maybe. 

I don’t think we should forget that the majority of Republicans sought to overthrow the results of a presidential election and install their un-elected candidate, the majority of their supporters approved, and their party sycophants concocted all kinds of post hoc rationalizations justifying it.

Republicans have calculated they will not pay a political price for opposing democracy, and they value holding power over their constitutional obligations, so there is no reason to respect the results of elections they do not win.  Unless there is some kind of sanction for this, there is no reason to believe this won’t become the new default for whenever they lose elections.

It does worry me. 

But some Republicans have already begun to criticize Trump publicly for refusing to admit defeat and for claiming fraud without proof. And it seems to me that most Republicans have not actively supported him, even if they haven't been critical. Maybe in the next few weeks, more of them will contradict Trump and his allies and defend the election as fundamentally fair. 

What kind of sanctions do you have in mind?

[RedZone]

36 minutes ago, zulu1128 said:

Encouraging to see WC finally show up with the completely made up anecdote to save the day after Bob raised the help flag. 🤣

Throwing in the "hE's uh DrumPf sUppORteR" was also a nice touch. Looks like everyone is staying on brand pretty well here. 

✌️

I was hoping today would be a much better day for you!!

[Belly Bob]

6 minutes ago, zulu1128 said:

Thanks for staying here waiting for me. 🤣

You know the pleasure is all mine. 

[zulu1128]

50 minutes ago, RedZone said:

I was hoping today would be a much better day for you!!

Every day is pretty good for me. Give it a try sometime. 🤷‍♂️

[Belly Bob]

On 12/16/2020 at 3:21 PM, World Citizen said:

A side question for you.  I am of the opinion that the Christianity that some Trump supporters claim to follow is being perverted and is the opposite of the teaching in many instances.  While I am not religious by any means and am opposed to the dogmatic approach, I do believe in the fundamental message of caring for our brothers and sisters and taking care of the least among us, and without concern for borders.  Do you have any thoughts on this?  

Anyway, it's always a pleasure to talk with you.  

Sorry about the slow reply. I've been putting it off because it's a hard question, and this isn't the ideal setting in which to answer it. And I get where you're coming from, and I agree in spirit, but let me just say a few things that might count in the other direction.

We're supposed to be good citizens of the countries in which we live. That's a point that St Paul makes over and over again in his letters to the early churches.

And though it's true that we're commanded to love our neighbors, which means everyone, and we're told that we will be judged by how we treat the least among us, there are very difficult questions about how to do that. And it's not at all clear that opening the borders would be consistent with Christ's commandment.

So, my best guess is that we should hope for a complex solution, something between building a wall and opening the borders. 

[World Citizen]

On 12/19/2020 at 8:15 AM, Belly Bob said:

Sorry about the slow reply. I've been putting it off because it's a hard question, and this isn't the ideal setting in which to answer it. And I get where you're coming from, and I agree in spirit, but let me just say a few things that might count in the other direction.

We're supposed to be good citizens of the countries in which we live. That's a point that St Paul makes over and over again in his letters to the early churches.

And though it's true that we're commanded to love our neighbors, which means everyone, and we're told that we will be judged by how we treat the least among us, there are very difficult questions about how to do that. And it's not at all clear that opening the borders would be consistent with Christ's commandment.

So, my best guess is that we should hope for a complex solution, something between building a wall and opening the borders. 

Thanks for the reply.  For the record, I don't support open borders.  I support even less the separating children from their families though.  

I don't think it requires a complex solution at all but just well thought out and reasonable.  And it would be very helpful to think of these people as fellow humans and that they have worth and dignity.  When deciding if they should be allowed to stay or if they should go, it should be with the above in mind.

I'm not sure but I didn't think Christ spoke to this issue.  Did he?  

[Belly Bob]

12 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Thanks for the reply.  For the record, I don't support open borders.  I support even less the separating children from their families though.  

I don't think it requires a complex solution at all but just well thought out and reasonable.  And it would be very helpful to think of these people as fellow humans and that they have worth and dignity.  When deciding if they should be allowed to stay or if they should go, it should be with the above in mind.

I'm not sure but I didn't think Christ spoke to this issue.  Did he?  

Borders and immigration? I don't think so. 

[15yds4gibberish]

On 12/19/2020 at 6:08 AM, zulu1128 said:

Encouraging to see WC finally show up with the completely made up anecdote to save the day ...

@World Citizenwrote accurately.  I'll not give it any more oxygen by writing about it, because I'm not interested in further perpetuating a wrong. 

But I will say that the WC I know is as good as they come.  He enjoys the devotion of lifelong friends (I know cuz I've met some of em -- and they are funny!), and his lived life speaks of service to others.  For whatever reason he brings out the noisiest version of me, probably because he has the rare capacity to listen intently until his ears bleed, which itself is an act of love for others.  I'm grateful for his friendship.

[15yds4gibberish]

On 12/19/2020 at 6:45 AM, Belly Bob said:

It does worry me. 

But some Republicans have already begun to criticize Trump publicly for refusing to admit defeat and for claiming fraud without proof. And it seems to me that most Republicans have not actively supported him, even if they haven't been critical. Maybe in the next few weeks, more of them will contradict Trump and his allies and defend the election as fundamentally fair. 

What kind of sanctions do you have in mind?

A lot of life keeping the gibberish household occupied these past several days.  Looks like I missed out on all the fun here.

You’ve asked a couple of very big questions  (this isn’t the best forum for genuine questions).  But in an attempt to start to get our arms around them, I’ll try to keep my comments limited to the subject of this thread – The Supreme Court Case filed by Texas as a kind of stand in for wider issues.

The first question you point toward is about what ‘most’ Republicans believe.  At the time I wrote my post, the EC voters hadn’t yet certified  and I was basically arguing that 126 House Republicans (64%) and 18 Republican State AG’s (75%) had signed onto this anti-democracy lawsuit to disenfranchise millions of their fellow Americans, based on lies and conspiracy theories.  This isn’t fringe.  This is mainstream Republicanism carrying out a propaganda campaign aimed at deceiving the public and undermining confidence in the legitimacy of our democracy.

According to polls at the time (which may or may not be all that accurate, but it’s what we have for now) something like 70% of R’s were saying they were concerned about fraud.  To your point, this may not necessarily mean that 70% of R’s thought T won. You might note that R Senators did not sign the amicus, and to that I would argue that it was a time when R Senators needed to speak up for American traditions, beliefs and institutions.  Instead there was a nauseating amount of the ‘too many Americans have doubts about the integrity of our elections’ routine coming from the very Republicans who were actively sowing doubts about the integrity of our elections.

As you suggest, some are finally coming around after the EC vote (not enough for my taste). It’s not hard to think we are going to have to live with the consequences of this institutional corrosion for a long time.

 

When it comes to the question of sanctions, I’m not sure what I have in mind yet (this also isn’t the best forum to be ‘not sure.’).  I do know that when lawyers and parties add their names to federal court signings they are supposed to have some law and fact on their side.  I also know courts can’t create new laws – legislatures do that.   

In this SC case, Texas AG Ken Paxton sought to cancel the votes legitimately cast by millions of citizens in four other states, GA, MI, PA, and WI.  I don’t exactly know how this suit leapfrogged a couple tiers of lower courts and was filed directly with the Supreme Court, but there is no law that requires legislatures from one state (GA, MI, PA, and WI) to consider other state’s feelings (TX) when they make their own election laws.

The Supreme Court rightly slammed the door on this frivolous argument: “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another State conducts its elections.” 

As I understand it, courts can sanction parties and lawyers in monetary (under certain conditions) and non-monetary ways.  At the federal level, non-monetary sanctions have included federal reprimands, orders to undergo legal education, referrals to the bar for disciplinary proceedings, warnings, suspension or disbarment, forced admission of the facts, bans on a party or attorney from bringing similar suits without advance permission from the court.

Courts exist to serve justice, not carry water for losing politicians.  If there aren’t some consequences for 1-59 frivolous, going forward, it's not hard to anticipate the attempt to steal elections will be normalized not only as acceptable, but also as necessary strategy.

[zulu1128]

4 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said:

@World Citizenwrote accurately.  I'll not give it any more oxygen by writing about it, because I'm not interested in further perpetuating a wrong. 

Seems like it would be an easy claim to substantiate, but yeah...your way is probably better if it’s too painful for everyone to revisit it. 🤷‍♂️

[15yds4gibberish]

52 minutes ago, zulu1128 said:

Seems like it would be an easy claim to substantiate, but yeah...your way is probably better if it’s too painful for everyone to revisit it. 🤷‍♂️

Did I write anything to suggest I thought it was 'too painful for everyone to revisit it,' if so, can you show me where?  Or is this another one of your vaunted "accidental implication of such's?"

🙄

[zulu1128]

9 minutes ago, 15yds4gibberish said:

Did I write anything to suggest I thought it was 'too painful for everyone to revisit it,' if so, can you show me where?  Or is this another one of your vaunted "accidental implication of such's?"

🙄

Dang, I was totally going for the modus tollens vibe there lol. 
 

Either way, it didn’t seem any sillier than your stated reason for declining to substantiate an easily verifiable claim. 
 

Carry on. ✌️

[15yds4gibberish]

15 hours ago, zulu1128 said:

Dang, I was totally going for the modus tollens vibe there lol. 
 

Either way, it didn’t seem any sillier than your stated reason for declining to substantiate an easily verifiable claim. 
 

Carry on. ✌️

I’m devastated that you find my reason ‘silly,’ but I’ll try to pick up the shattered pieces of my life and, as you suggest, ‘carry on.’

Look at the bright side.  It only took you one post to try to ascribe something to me that I didn’t write, verifying how easily @World Citizen's claim could be accurate.   At least you have that.  🙄

[DBP66]

Pro-Trump network Newsmax airs 2-minute video admitting it has 'no evidence' of outlandish fraud claims against 2 voting-machine companies

Eliza Relman and Jake Lahut 

24 hours ago

 

 

Rudy Giuliani, left, and Joseph diGenova, center, attorneys for President Donald Trump, at a news conference on November 19.  Getty

• Newsmax on Monday aired a nearly two-minute video ticking through items it had "not reported as true" related to President Donald Trump's unsubstantiated election-fraud theories.
• Fox News also aired clarifications on several shows over the weekend.
• Newsmax, Fox News, and One America News Network could face defamation lawsuits from a pair of voting-system companies, The New York Times reported.

[zulu1128]

4 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said:

I’m devastated that you find my reason ‘silly,’ but I’ll try to pick up the shattered pieces of my life and, as you suggest, ‘carry on.’

Look at the bright side.  It only took you one post to try to ascribe something to me that I didn’t write, verifying how easily @World Citizen's claim could be accurate.   At least you have that.  🙄

Nah, it's pretty obvious he just made it up lol. Albeit weak, your effort is noted anyway. 

[RedZone]

2 hours ago, zulu1128 said:

zulu1128 said: lol

lol

[World Citizen]

On 12/22/2020 at 12:19 PM, zulu1128 said:

Nah, it's pretty obvious he just made it up lol. Albeit weak, your effort is noted anyway. 

Totally obvious.  As you have said It's way too easy to check on something like that anyway.  

https://www.prepgridiron.com/topic/18150-“coronavirus-is-overblown-press-created-hysteria”/?do=findComment&comment=595930

https://www.prepgridiron.com/topic/19018-confederate-flag-banned-at-nascar-events/?do=findComment&comment=608698

And even in this very thread.  Not once but twice.

You should probably go back to no effort, it's just not a good week.

Hope this helps.  🤣

[World Citizen]

On 12/22/2020 at 8:36 AM, 15yds4gibberish said:

I’m devastated that you find my reason ‘silly,’ but I’ll try to pick up the shattered pieces of my life and, as you suggest, ‘carry on.’

Look at the bright side.  It only took you one post to try to ascribe something to me that I didn’t write, verifying how easily @World Citizen's claim could be accurate.   At least you have that.  🙄

I revisited the previously mentioned unimaginably painful examples and it wasn't painful at all and it was so easy a caveman can do it.  😏  In fact, I only had to go back a couple of pages in this thread.  

Thank you for the kind words brother.  I hope all is well and life isn't coming at you too fast.  

Next time lunch is on me.