All time Best 3 Year Run - Finalists

[RedZone]

Just now, Atticus Finch said:

RedZone always pimps East Texas teams (because they routinely beat Louisiana schools) and Mississippi teams (because Louisiana schools routinely got their signature wins against them).

 

Ok, sammy...

You must be feeling the heat?

[Atticus Finch]

RedZone is the easiest person on this forum to describe.

Plays to type every single time.

[Las Vegas_JC]

9 hours ago, Sammyswordsman said:

The Bishop isn’t bullet proof either.  Their run has its asterisks as well 

I remember that some guy on this board would always say “the Bishop has no weaknesses!” 
 

Hmmmm....

[Sammyswordsman]

2 minutes ago, Las Vegas_JC said:

I remember that some guy on this board would always say “the Bishop has no weaknesses!” 
 

Hmmmm....

And that statement was on point 

[Atticus Finch]

42 minutes ago, badrouter said:

STA in 2009 did not make it to the state championship game. They lost in the semis to Manatee. In fairness, the Manatee game was a true road game-several hours on a bus to Manatee's home field, heavy crowd advantage for Manatee etc- which is something that is quite rare in other power states' playoffs. But, that Manatee team lost by two touchdowns to Venice (that Venice team failed to win a playoff game) and lost the next week to Plant. That the 2009 STA team had a record number of NFL players didn't prevent the loss to Manatee. The loss can't be dismissed as irrelevant in this discussion.

If winning the last game in every season of the run is a requirement then there's no point having a list or conducting a debate.

It could theoretically include teams with multiple losses in the regular season who just played in weak states or had weak playoff brackets.

It would also include a team like Cocoa instead of STA which is ridiculous on its face.

[RedZone]

22 minutes ago, Atticus Finch said:

RedZone is the easiest person on this forum to describe.

No, wrong again, Finch....

You are.....every team sucks that you want to suck. 

You spend half your life trying to prove it. lol

It's funny too.

[Atticus Finch]

28 minutes ago, RedZone said:

You are.....every team sucks that you want to suck. 

No, I just say that they suck if they do, indeed, suck.

You just happen to claim that a lot of sucky teams are actually good.

[badrouter]

1 hour ago, Atticus Finch said:

If winning the last game in every season of the run is a requirement then there's no point having a list or conducting a debate.

It could theoretically include teams with multiple losses in the regular season who just played in weak states or had weak playoff brackets.

It would also include a team like Cocoa instead of STA which is ridiculous on its face.

First, in a discussion of the greatest runs, going undefeated-and that's what I mean, not just winning the last game- does matter. Not a requirement, but it's harder to put a team who didn't go undefeated over one that did. So, no, what I'm arguing wouldn't mean teams like those you mention would be included.

STA losing to Manatee in 2009 should make it difficult to put that 2008-2010 run ahead of Lakeland's 2004-06 run, for example. Allen losing to Westlake should make it difficult to put them ahead of SLC 2004-06. A lot of factors should be considered. 

[Atticus Finch]

Just now, badrouter said:

First, in a discussion of the greatest runs, going undefeated-and that's what I mean, not just winning the last game- does matter. Not a requirement, but it's harder to put a team who didn't go undefeated over one that did. So, no, what I'm arguing wouldn't mean teams like those you mention would be included.

This makes sense only through the lens of the program that you root for.

[Atticus Finch]

1 minute ago, badrouter said:

STA losing to Manatee in 2009 should make it difficult to put that 2008-2010 run ahead of Lakeland's 2004-06 run, for example. Allen losing to Westlake should make it difficult to put them ahead of SLC 2004-06. A lot of factors should be considered. 

Apparently not a lot of factors since you only seem to have one.

[badrouter]

Something we should do before locking anyone in or out of tiers is to compare teams from the same state, and similar era. We should be much more comfortable comparing those teams than those from different parts of the country. 

[badrouter]

1 minute ago, Atticus Finch said:

This makes sense only through the lens of the program that you root for.

It makes perfect sense. Wins and losses shouldn't be meaningless. They shouldn't be the only factors, but they shouldn't be disregarded just because someone trots out a list showing how the players did several years after leaving the H.S. program.

[badrouter]

3 minutes ago, Atticus Finch said:

Apparently not a lot of factors since you only seem to have one.

Strength-and diversity- of schedule, quality of players, quality of coaches, quality of prepgridiron message board fanboys all should matter.

[Atticus Finch]

Just now, badrouter said:

Wins and losses shouldn't be meaningless. 

Nobody claimed that they should.

They also shouldn't be the only thing which is seemingly your position. Which, again, makes perfect sense from your perspective.

[Atticus Finch]

1 minute ago, badrouter said:

They shouldn't be the only factors, but they shouldn't be disregarded just because someone trots out a list showing how the players did several years after leaving the H.S. program.

Again, nobody said they should.

But you're pretty close to saying that it should be the only thing.

[Atticus Finch]

2 minutes ago, badrouter said:

They shouldn't be the only factors, but they shouldn't be disregarded just because someone trots out a list showing how the players did several years after leaving the H.S. program.

I don't think 43-1 vs. 45-0 is that significant if it's proven that (1) the former played much tougher competition and (2) their players proved to be a lot better.

[badrouter]

3 hours ago, Atticus Finch said:

I don't think 43-1 vs. 45-0 is that significant if it's proven that (1) the former played much tougher competition and (2) their players proved to be a lot better.

This is something we get wrong a lot. We are evaluating the quality of *high school* teams and their runs over a three-year period. We should be aware that some kids peak in their high school careers; others can be very rough and unskilled, but have a much higher ceiling that gets realized several years later. Southlake Carrol is an example of a program which had a lot of players who had hit their peak by 18. That means they may not have been very good prospects for the next levels. Some of these teams had players who went on to decorated NFL careers, but they weren't anywhere near their peak in high school. Fact is, it is possible-and not even that uncommon- to see high school players who do nothing at the upper levels simply be better H.S. players than kids who are high level recruits and even future NFL players. Jaharie Martin may well have been the best football player STA played against in 2018, even though he's just a backup RB at Montana St. right now. There's no reason or evidence to believe Derek Wingo was any better player, even though it seems abundantly obvious he will have a much more decorated career at the upper levels. (We shouldn't get bogged down on just those two players. There are plenty of similar examples each and every year).

We aren't (or shouldn't be) concerned with how good the players eventually turned out to be years after their H.S. careers. We only care about how good they were when they were in high school. 

[Sammyswordsman]

38 minutes ago, badrouter said:

This is something we get wrong a lot. We are evaluating the quality of *high school* teams and their runs over a three-year period. We should be aware that some kids peak in their high school careers; others can be very rough and unskilled, but have a much higher ceiling that gets realized several years later. Southlake Carrol is an example of a program which had a lot of players who had hit their peak by 18. That means they may not have been very good prospects for the next levels. Some of these teams had players who went on to decorated NFL careers, but they weren't anywhere near their peak in high school. Fact is, it is possible-and not even that uncommon- to see high school players who do nothing at the upper levels simply be better H.S. players than kids who are high level recruits and even future NFL players. Jaharie Martin may well have been the best football player STA played against in 2018, even though he's just a backup RB at Montana St. right now. There's no reason or evidence to believe Derek Wingo was any better player, even though it seems abundantly obvious he will have a much more decorated career at the upper levels. (We shouldn't get bogged down on just those two players. There are plenty of similar examples each and every year).

We aren't (or shouldn't be) concerned with how good the players eventually turned out to be years after their H.S. careers. We only care about how good they were when they were in high school. 

I agree 100% with this.  Too many "Greatest Teams" rankings use NFL careers as the top metric. 

[Sammyswordsman]

We need data on the top contenders for Tier 1.  Below is info I dug up but we need this crowd sourced especially with adding top wins and other variables

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_School_Football_National_Championship

Team	Year	Record	Nat Rank
Allen	2013-15	46-1	#1: #1: #16
Bishop Gorman	2014-16	45-0	#3: #4: #1
Booker T Wash	2012-14	42-1	#20: #1: #6
Central Bucks West	1997-99	45-0	#4; #7; #4
DLS	2001-03	37-0	#1: #1: #1
Don Bosco	2009-11	36-0	#1; #2: #1
ECA	1997-99	45-0	#12: #3: #2
Lakeland	2004-06	45-0	#3: #1: #1
Mater Dei	2017-19	42-2	#1: #1: #2
Moeller	1975-77	36-0	#1; #1; #1
SLC	2004-06	48-0	#1;#2; #1
STA	2008-10	43-1	#1: ?: #1

[badrouter]

45 minutes ago, Sammyswordsman said:

We need data on the top contenders for Tier 1.  Below is info I dug up but we need this crowd sourced especially with adding top wins and other variables

Team	Year	Record	Nat Rank
Allen	2013-15	46-1	#1: #1: #16
Bishop Gorman	2014-16	45-0	#3: #4: #1
Booker T Wash	2012-14	42-1	#20: #1: #6
Central Bucks West	1997-99	45-0	#4; #7; #4
DLS	2001-03	37-0	#1: #1: #1
Don Bosco	2009-11	36-0	#1; #2: #1
ECA	1997-99	45-0	#12: #3: #2
Lakeland	2006-08	44-1	#3: NR: NR
Mater Dei	2017-19	42-2	#1: #1: #2
Moeller	1976-78	36-0	#1; #1; #1
SLC	2004-06	48-0	#1;#2; #1
STA	2008-10	43-1	#1: ?: #1

Lakeland's nominated run was from 2004-2006. Their record was 45-0. They were nationally ranked all three years, with mutiple #1 ratings in both 2005 and 2006. This also necessitates we define how we generate the "Nat Rank" column you have here. None of the rankings lists are infallible, or even necessarily reliable or decent.

[Sammyswordsman]

Allen  Pros and Cons - Won Texas 6A 2013 and '14 years, but 2014 defense yielded alot of yards and points.  '13 Team listed amoung Top 10 Greatest ever.  Lost in '15.  No relevant OOS wins

Bishop Gorman - Beat 15 highly regarded OOS teams.  Beat Cen10 and SJB in '14.  No relevant wins in '15.  But highly ranked nationally (Top 5).

  In 2016 Beat SJB, STA, Cedar Hill, but their best ever team avoided a loss to STA on a end of game chip shot FG that hit the cross bar.  2016 team listed in Top 10 of greatest ever

Booker T Wash - 2012 OOS win vs. Cedar Hill but lost to Central.  2013 beat Central, Norcross 55-0 and Bishop Gorman in Vegas. '14 Beat Bingham by 11 and Central by 1

Central Bucks West - Need info

DLS -2001 beat #1 Poly's best team in Long Beach, 2002 beat St. Louis in HI, and Poly 2003 Beat ECA.  2001 team listed as the Greatest ever

Don Bosco - Outscored opponents 495-93 on average during this run.  Crushed DLS in 2009.  '09 and '11 listed among Top 25 Greatest teams ever.

ECA - Brock Berlin was QB.  Not sure if any OOD or OOS opponnents Need more info

Lakeland - Won Fla Championships.  Ranked #1 in 05 and "06    Not sure if any OOS wins

Mater Dei - Beat SJB all three years, Beat IMG, SFA, SJC, DLS twice.  Lost to SJB twice.'17 never trailed and is listed amoung Top 10 Greatest teams ever.

Moeller - The Moeller Steamroller.  Dominated top class in Ohio, won 35-7 vs. Dallas JesuitTexas.  Had 40+ scholarship guys on these teams.  Continued to win Natties for 4-5 years after this run, and also dominated before this run. '76 team listed among greatest ever

SLC - Won Texas 6A thrice in a row.  Share of Natty in '04 and '06.  Not sure of any OOS wins

STA - Share of Natty in '08 and '10.  Both listed in Top 25 Greatest Ever teams.  Lost in semi's in '09.  Not sure of any OOS wins

St. Iggy - "93 and "95 teams listed in Top 25 HS teams of all time. Need some OOS data to offset claims of Ohio being down during this time

 

https://www.maxpreps.com/news/gX9QBgl7ckGJMiCU7fc5Zw/legendary-de-la-salle,-yates-teams-headline-list-of-greatest-high-school-football-teams-of-all-time.htm

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-jerseys-don-bosco-prep-11-0-is-nations-no-1-team-in-final-usa-today-super-25-high-school-football-rankings-for-2011-135962968.html

[Sammyswordsman]

13 minutes ago, badrouter said:

Lakeland's nominated run was from 2004-2006. Their record was 45-0. They were nationally ranked all three years, with mutiple #1 ratings in both 2005 and 2006. This also necessitates we define how we generate the "Nat Rank" column you have here. None of the rankings lists are infallible, or even necessarily reliable or decent.

I was using USAT and Calpreps.  But not convinced these are infallible.  So send over the Lakeland polls that had them ranked.

[Sammyswordsman]

23 minutes ago, badrouter said:

Lakeland's nominated run was from 2004-2006. Their record was 45-0. They were nationally ranked all three years, with mutiple #1 ratings in both 2005 and 2006. This also necessitates we define how we generate the "Nat Rank" column you have here. None of the rankings lists are infallible, or even necessarily reliable or decent.

I agree.  Changing Lakeland to 2004-2006

 

[HurricaneNick]

9 minutes ago, Sammyswordsman said:

Allen  Pros and Cons - Won Texas 6A 2013 and '14 years, but 2014 defense yielded alot of yards and points.  Lost in '15.  No relevant OOS wins

Bishop Gorman - Beat 15 highly regarded OOS teams.  Beat Cen10 adn SJB in '14.  No relevant wins in '15

  In 2016 Beat SJB, STA, Cedar Hill, but their best ever team avoided a loss to STA on a end of game chip shot FG that hit the cross bar.

Booker T Wash - 2012 OOS win vs. Cedar Hill but lost to Central.  2013 beat Central, Norcross 55-0 and Bishop Gorman in Vegas. '14 Beat Bingham by 11 and Central by 1

Central Bucks West - Need info

DLS -2001 beat #1 Poly's best team in Long Beach, 2002 beat St. Louis in HI, and Poly 2003 Beat ECA

Don Bosco - Outscored opponents 495-93 on average during this run.  Crushed DLS in 2009

ECA - Brock Berlin was QB.  Not sure if any OOD or OOS opponnents Need more info

Lakeland - Won Fla Championships.  Weren't highly ranked by USAT for some reason.  Not sure if any OOS wins

Mater Dei - Beat SJB all three years, Beat IMG, SFA, SJC, DLS twice.  Lost to SJB twice

Moeller - The Moeller Steamroller.  Dominated top class in Ohio, won in Texas.  Had 40+ scholarship guys on these teams.  Continued to win Natties for 4-5 years after this run, and also dominated before this run.

SLC - Won Texas 6A thrice in a row.  Share of Natty in '04 and '06.  Not sure of any OOS wins

STA - Share of Natty in '08 and '10.   Lost in semi's in '09.  Not sure of any OOS wins

 

 

Does beating Gorman twice (shutting them out at home + running clock) and putting a running clock on the New Jersey state champion not count as significant wins?

[Sammyswordsman]

2 minutes ago, HurricaneNick said:

Does beating Gorman twice (shutting them out at home + running clock) and putting a running clock on the New Jersey state champion not count as significant wins?

Yes but as impressive as those were.  The others were even better.  Keep the info coming tho.  These runs are in rarified air.  Will be a tough call to pick the 6 best for Tier 1.