frankyjames Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 20 minutes ago, SoCalFball said: Answer this besides DLS what team is worthy of Cen10 playing because there is so many quality teams in SoCal there really isn’t a need to travel up north. One thing about Cen10 they never been known to shy away from teams. Idk if the same can be said about Folsom. Ok. Let's try this again. Will Cen10 travel to NorCal to play? Yes or no only. Since Folsom is the #1 public in CA, Cen10 would have to travel to them. This is especially true now that they lost to an SD school this year. Due to the SoCal Rule, schools like Cen10 have been able to avoid Folsom in the playoffs. See below: This quote is directly from CIF Executive Director Roger Blake, a SoCal guy himself- “Following two years of the expanded Open Division Football Regional Bowl Championships, the votes by both the football coaches’ advisory committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated the strong desire to return the Open Division Football Bowl Game to its original format,” stated Roger L. Blake, CIF Executive Director. “As with all State Championship events, each year there is always a thorough review by various committees. Modifications are forwarded when there is a majority that believes the changes will better serve our membership and their students.” Roger Blake is a SoCal guy. See below We now come to find out that this rule was SoCal driven and the "Lincoln Newspaper moms theory" was just smoke and mirrors for SoCal troll banter. Winning! "Blake probably is known most to Inland residents for the 23 years he spent as a coach and administrator in the Lake Elsinore Unified School District. Blake was the boys basketball coach at Elsinore High School for 17 years (1978-94) and the school’s athletic director for 11 years (1984-94). Blake then served as the LEUSD’s director of district athletics from 1994 to 2001. He also was a teacher and coach at Cajon High School in San Bernardino from 1977 to 1978." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On2whls Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 hours ago, frankyjames said: Can you refute my facts? Will you at least admit that it is a FACT that Cen10 will NOT TRAVEL WHATSOEVER to NorCal? We can start here. Fair? First, since you deflected, I’ll have to use my NorCal (now personal) business associate to help get to the truth. This will mean disclosing the source of the allegations. You okay with that? Second, what facts specifically am I supposed to refute? You mentioned several teams, yet you refuse to name them. You have mentioned several times going back to last year that Cen10 has refused Folsom’s offers to play, yet you didn’t indicate who initiated the discussions, when, and what other talking points may have been made in an effort for either school to facilitate a matchup. All you’ve said is Folsom offered a week 0 date for this year. Was that before or after Cen10 and MD had discussions? Whether or not Cen10 is likely travel anywhere outside of So Cal can be determined based on their history of OOL scheduling. To the chagrin of many Cen10 supporters, they don’t travel very far, yet they haven’t had much of a problem assembling a quality and competitive OOL schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ararar Posted November 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 42 minutes ago, frankyjames said: I shall re-post for those who failed to read @Ararar has stated that I "made this up." I shall repeat that none of the words below are my own words. Most have been quoted directly from the CIF. Thanks to the SoCal rule: From the CIF press release:This return to the original format began with the CIF Football Advisory Committee at their April 2014 meeting and was also unanimously supported by the 10 CIF Section Commissioners at their summer 2014 meeting along with the CIF Executive Committee. “Following two years of the expanded Open Division Football Regional Bowl Championships, the votes by both the football coaches’ advisory committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated the strong desire to return the Open Division Football Bowl Game to its original format,” stated Roger L. Blake, CIF Executive Director. “As with all State Championship events, each year there is always a thorough review by various committees. Modifications are forwarded when there is a majority that believes the changes will better serve our membership and their students.” Note the unanimous votes by the 10 section commissioners, the CIF Executive Committee and the advisory committee. Note there is no mention of parental or fan input. Any Questions? Another note" Notice that TEN section commissioners (SoCal and Norcal), the CIF Executive Committee, AND the advisory committee ALL voted to change the playoff format to its current state. Sounds like those Folsom moms really pulled some weight. Also- ALL SOCAL section commissioners voted for this rule. What was their angle? Sounds like they wanted certain teams to be able to legally duck certain NorCal teams in Bowl Games! Those teams include: Cen10, MV, Servite, JSerra, etc................................................... This quote is directly from CIF Executive Director Roger Blake, a SoCal guy himself- “Following two years of the expanded Open Division Football Regional Bowl Championships, the votes by both the football coaches’ advisory committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated the strong desire to return the Open Division Football Bowl Game to its original format,” stated Roger L. Blake, CIF Executive Director. “As with all State Championship events, each year there is always a thorough review by various committees. Modifications are forwarded when there is a majority that believes the changes will better serve our membership and their students.” Roger Blake is a SoCal guy. See below We now come to find out that this rule was SoCal driven and the "Lincoln Newspaper moms theory" was just smoke and mirrors for SoCal troll banter. Winning! "Blake probably is known most to Inland residents for the 23 years he spent as a coach and administrator in the Lake Elsinore Unified School District. Blake was the boys basketball coach at Elsinore High School for 17 years (1978-94) and the school’s athletic director for 11 years (1984-94). Blake then served as the LEUSD’s director of district athletics from 1994 to 2001. He also was a teacher and coach at Cajon High School in San Bernardino from 1977 to 1978." The very first sentence in the press release shows the rest is not relevant to the birth of the Folsom rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyjames Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, Ararar said: The very first sentence in the press release shows the rest is not relevant to the birth of the Folsom rule This sure is This quote is directly from CIF Executive Director Roger Blake, a SoCal guy himself- “Following two years of the expanded Open Division Football Regional Bowl Championships, the votes by both the football coaches’ advisory committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated the strong desire to return the Open Division Football Bowl Game to its original format,” stated Roger L. Blake, CIF Executive Director. “As with all State Championship events, each year there is always a thorough review by various committees. Modifications are forwarded when there is a majority that believes the changes will better serve our membership and their students.” Roger Blake is a SoCal guy. See below We now come to find out that this rule was SoCal driven and the "Lincoln Newspaper moms theory" was just smoke and mirrors for SoCal troll banter. Winning! "Blake probably is known most to Inland residents for the 23 years he spent as a coach and administrator in the Lake Elsinore Unified School District. Blake was the boys basketball coach at Elsinore High School for 17 years (1978-94) and the school’s athletic director for 11 years (1984-94). Blake then served as the LEUSD’s director of district athletics from 1994 to 2001. He also was a teacher and coach at Cajon High School in San Bernardino from 1977 to 1978." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyjames Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 23 minutes ago, On2whls said: Whether or not Cen10 is likely travel anywhere outside of So Cal can be determined based on their history of OOL scheduling. Which is zero. So why not admit that Cen10 will NOT accept ANY offer to travel to NorCal to play ANY team? Seems simple right? Easy facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_e Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 4 hours ago, frankyjames said: Can you refute my facts? Will you at least admit that it is a FACT that Cen10 will NOT TRAVEL WHATSOEVER to NorCal? We can start here. Fair? The fact is everyone knows cc doesn't travel. Both of their games with Pittsburgh were at cc. Another fact is that Folsom has traveled to SoCal. They agreed to travel to play a mediocre Chaminade. Now they dont want to travel to cc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippers Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 hour ago, frankyjames said: Due to the SoCal Rule, schools like Cen10 have been able to avoid Folsom in the playoffs. So someone correct me if I am wrong, but aren't MD, SJB, Cen10, MV, Servite, etc. all in the same sectional playoff? So ultimately, only the champion in most cases would go to a state final? So, an open play in game would affect two champs from different sections in a "win or go home" scenario. Removing said play in game would allow for both teams to have a shot at a state bowl game. So, again, correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't this increase the likelihood of those teams matching up the non open game? And in Norcal, the play in game was "win or go home" between two section champs. Removing it allows for one of them going on to the lower bowl game instead of losing and going home. Oh, and look. Folsom is conveniently in a different section than DLS. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyjames Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 26 minutes ago, Rippers said: So someone correct me if I am wrong, but aren't MD, SJB, Cen10, MV, Servite, etc. all in the same sectional playoff? So ultimately, only the champion in most cases would go to a state final? So, an open play in game would affect two champs from different sections in a "win or go home" scenario. Removing said play in game would allow for both teams to have a shot at a state bowl game. So, again, correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't this increase the likelihood of those teams matching up the non open game? And in Norcal, the play in game was "win or go home" between two section champs. Removing it allows for one of them going on to the lower bowl game instead of losing and going home. Oh, and look. Folsom is conveniently in a different section than DLS. I will post it for you again, since you have failed to read. This quote is directly from CIF Executive Director Roger Blake, a SoCal guy himself- “Following two years of the expanded Open Division Football Regional Bowl Championships, the votes by both the football coaches’ advisory committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated the strong desire to return the Open Division Football Bowl Game to its original format,” stated Roger L. Blake, CIF Executive Director. “As with all State Championship events, each year there is always a thorough review by various committees. Modifications are forwarded when there is a majority that believes the changes will better serve our membership and their students.” Roger Blake is a SoCal guy. See below We now come to find out that this rule was SoCal driven and the "Lincoln Newspaper moms theory" was just smoke and mirrors for SoCal troll banter. Winning! "Blake probably is known most to Inland residents for the 23 years he spent as a coach and administrator in the Lake Elsinore Unified School District. Blake was the boys basketball coach at Elsinore High School for 17 years (1978-94) and the school’s athletic director for 11 years (1984-94). Blake then served as the LEUSD’s director of district athletics from 1994 to 2001. He also was a teacher and coach at Cajon High School in San Bernardino from 1977 to 1978." This was a rule that was SoCal driven, as they clearly state a desire to return to the original SBG format. The "Folsom moms" argument is comical at best and had zero to do with the rule changes. SoCal's motives were purely SoCal and had nothing to do with DLS or Folsom. They could care less. However, the rule allows for 99 percent of SoCal's top teams to avoid Folsom in any SBG game. Cen10 has already stated they "do not travel" and have zero desire for a game. Given that Folsom is 7-0 against SoCal, it looks like the true motive was avoiding Folsom. The best part about all of this- the architect of this actual rule was a SoCal guy! The irony- CIF Executive Director! You can't make this stuff up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyjames Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 36 minutes ago, old_e said: The fact is everyone knows cc doesn't travel. If you are a top team in CA, you don't refuse travel. ALL other top teams, North and South, have traveled for games. Cen10 lost to an SD school this year. Folsom is the #1 public in CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEOC89 Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 22 minutes ago, Rippers said: So someone correct me if I am wrong, but aren't MD, SJB, Cen10, MV, Servite, etc. all in the same sectional playoff? So ultimately, only the champion in most cases would go to a state final? So, an open play in game would affect two champs from different sections in a "win or go" scenario. Removing said play in game would allow for both teams to have a shot at a state bowl game. So, again, correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't this increase the likelihood of those teams matching up the non open game? And in Norcal, the play in game was "win or go home" between two section champs. Removing it allows for one of them going on to the lower bowl game instead of losing and going home. Oh, and look. Folsom is conveniently in a different section than DLS. Exactly... In 2014 the IE was Merged into the Southern Section, putting the #1 Public Cen 10 with all The Power Privates, in the Pac 5 which Cen 10 Proceeded to win Back To Back.... Up here in Nor Cal, instead of Putting the NCS and SJS together to create a Section where the Best Teams Played each other to go to SBG games, We got "The Folsom Rule" instead where The Folsom Parents, Coaches and Administration Lobbied the CIF so they would not have to play DLS to go to a SBG because "It wasn't Fair".... My Favorite Part of the whole thing was the Folsom Fan Threatening a Lawsuit Because.... "DLS Can Attract Players from Anywhere, Even out of State".... Folsom's Best Player that year was a Senior Transfer from GA and Folsom would win Back to Back D1AA Titles on the Backs of "Northern Nevada's Best Players"..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippers Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, frankyjames said: I will post it for you again, since you have failed to read. I can read. But you cannot comprehend what you have posted because your post does not support your argument in any manner. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyjames Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Rippers said: I can read. But you cannot comprehend what you have posted because your post does not support your argument in any manner. Sure it does. And I will post it again. This quote is directly from CIF Executive Director Roger Blake, a SoCal guy himself- “Following two years of the expanded Open Division Football Regional Bowl Championships, the votes by both the football coaches’ advisory committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated the strong desire to return the Open Division Football Bowl Game to its original format,” stated Roger L. Blake, CIF Executive Director. “As with all State Championship events, each year there is always a thorough review by various committees. Modifications are forwarded when there is a majority that believes the changes will better serve our membership and their students.” Roger Blake is a SoCal guy. See below We now come to find out that this rule was SoCal driven and the "Lincoln Newspaper moms theory" was just smoke and mirrors for SoCal troll banter. Winning! "Blake probably is known most to Inland residents for the 23 years he spent as a coach and administrator in the Lake Elsinore Unified School District. Blake was the boys basketball coach at Elsinore High School for 17 years (1978-94) and the school’s athletic director for 11 years (1984-94). Blake then served as the LEUSD’s director of district athletics from 1994 to 2001. He also was a teacher and coach at Cajon High School in San Bernardino from 1977 to 1978." Bottom line- This was a SoCal driven change. The "Folsom moms" argument was just smoke and mirrors for about 5 Internet trolls who type like 5 year olds. SoCal lobbied for the change. The second order affect that was that 99 percent of SoCal's top teams avoided Folsom or any other #2 team in NorCal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippers Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, frankyjames said: Sure it does. And I will post it again. How? Your main support is that the CIF Executive Director was a So Cal guy, the quoted section is "a SoCal guy himself" even though in an earlier post you claimed that none of the words you posted where your own. I do not see the relevance of this as it is not as though he drove the agenda. But, he is quoted as saying "votes by both the football coaches Advisory Committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated..." So he puts the Advisory Committee, of which he is not a part of, on the same level as the Section Commissioners, of which he is the spokesperson for. And its not like he veto'ed their vote, so again, his home is irrelevant since he was not pushing the issue. But, since the AC was put on the same level as the commissioners, this indicates that the AC was pushing the idea. And who was in charge of the coaches Advisory Committee? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigrobstercraws Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 2 hours ago, frankyjames said: I shall re-post for those who failed to read @Ararar has stated that I "made this up." I shall repeat that none of the words below are my own words. Most have been quoted directly from the CIF. Thanks to the SoCal rule: From the CIF press release:This return to the original format began with the CIF Football Advisory Committee at their April 2014 meeting and was also unanimously supported by the 10 CIF Section Commissioners at their summer 2014 meeting along with the CIF Executive Committee. “Following two years of the expanded Open Division Football Regional Bowl Championships, the votes by both the football coaches’ advisory committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated the strong desire to return the Open Division Football Bowl Game to its original format,” stated Roger L. Blake, CIF Executive Director. “As with all State Championship events, each year there is always a thorough review by various committees. Modifications are forwarded when there is a majority that believes the changes will better serve our membership and their students.” Note the unanimous votes by the 10 section commissioners, the CIF Executive Committee and the advisory committee. Note there is no mention of parental or fan input. Any Questions? Another note" Notice that TEN section commissioners (SoCal and Norcal), the CIF Executive Committee, AND the advisory committee ALL voted to change the playoff format to its current state. Sounds like those Folsom moms really pulled some weight. Also- ALL SOCAL section commissioners voted for this rule. What was their angle? Sounds like they wanted certain teams to be able to legally duck certain NorCal teams in Bowl Games! Those teams include: Cen10, MV, Servite, JSerra, etc................................................... This quote is directly from CIF Executive Director Roger Blake, a SoCal guy himself- “Following two years of the expanded Open Division Football Regional Bowl Championships, the votes by both the football coaches’ advisory committee and the 10 Section Commissioners indicated the strong desire to return the Open Division Football Bowl Game to its original format,” stated Roger L. Blake, CIF Executive Director. “As with all State Championship events, each year there is always a thorough review by various committees. Modifications are forwarded when there is a majority that believes the changes will better serve our membership and their students.” Roger Blake is a SoCal guy. See below We now come to find out that this rule was SoCal driven and the "Lincoln Newspaper moms theory" was just smoke and mirrors for SoCal troll banter. Winning! "Blake probably is known most to Inland residents for the 23 years he spent as a coach and administrator in the Lake Elsinore Unified School District. Blake was the boys basketball coach at Elsinore High School for 17 years (1978-94) and the school’s athletic director for 11 years (1984-94). Blake then served as the LEUSD’s director of district athletics from 1994 to 2001. He also was a teacher and coach at Cajon High School in San Bernardino from 1977 to 1978." ^^^ Folsom Excuse Post 2.0 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal 14 Posted November 11, 2019 Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 hours ago, THEOC89 said: So to answer your question, there is no Team up here other then DLS which would be worth Cen10 Traveling to Nor Cal to play... Dude, you’re always selling NorCal short. Gets old after a while. Last I checked, Centennial is 0-1 against CCS teams and wasn’t alway dominant against Clovis West when they played. Wouldn’t give Serra or Valley Christian a shot? Did you give Palo Alto a shot? Serra (with their starting QB), for instance, was much better offensively than that Viking team. Fresno Central would be a handful for any team not named Mater Dei or St. John Bosco. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBigdaddybloom Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 Just stop whining and come on down. This can be settled very easily if you want. If not, stop posting what we all know as the Jake browning rule! It’s his last year in College, let the rule go! Even he’s over it! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On2whls Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, frankyjames said: Which is zero. So why not admit that Cen10 will NOT accept ANY offer to travel to NorCal to play ANY team? Seems simple right? Easy facts. The issue is you declared, as a matter of public record, that Cen10 declined offers from multiple schools. It’s not the same as taking an inference as fact, in the process misrepresenting the truth. Failing to disclose all the information about a particular situation in the interest of disparaging an entity is also not being truthful. You’ve used that strategy many times. Keep it up though, nobody here expects any less of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigrobstercraws Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 Didn't SJB call out Folsom for a game last year? So when is that game happening since "Folsom travels to So Cal to play its top teams" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEOC89 Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, Cal 14 said: Dude, you’re always selling NorCal short. Gets old after a while. Last I checked, Centennial is 0-1 against CCS teams and wasn’t alway dominant against Clovis West when they played. Wouldn’t give Serra or Valley Christian a shot? Did you give Palo Alto a shot? Serra, for instance, was much better offensively than that Viking team. Fresno Central would be a handful for any team not named Mater Dei or St. John Bosco. I really don't think I am.... When was that Paly Win over Cen10?.... Maybe next you will say that Cen10 should come up here and Play Grant.... Maybe both Serra and VC would give Cen10 a Game and Maybe not, why should Cen10 have to come up here and play them when they can schedule better teams then those 2 right in their own Back yard SDCC, Sagus AZ, MD?... IMG came out from FL to play Cen10 in Back to Back years, why should Nor Cal be any different?... PITT had no problem going down there in Back to Back Years... ST. Mary's Broke a 2 year deal and Dropped an Awful Team from their schedule to travel to So Cal and Play MV.... Why cant Nor Cal teams like Folsom do the same?.... I am a Nor Cal Fan, I give Nor Cal Teams their Props, Just Like I was one of the first ones on this Board Talking about Serra San Mateo this year being as good or better then Folsom, and I even said Serra would be a Real contender in D1AA.... Obviously, losing their starting QB to Injury has changed things for them... I root for all the Nor Cal Teams against So Cal Except for Folsom... And if Folsom Voluntarily Scheduled Cen10 or MV, I would Root for Folsom as well.... As far as your Central Fresno comment... Is that not the same Slo Moving Team that gave up 84 Points in a Playoff game to that Awful, Overrated, Folsom Offense?.... That Same Folsom Offense that could only score a Combined 14 Points in 8 Quarters of Play against DLS and SDCC, the only 2 "Good" Teams Folsom Played Last Year???.... You think That Central Team would be competitive with DLS, Cen10, Mission Viejo, Servite?... Corona Del Mar would probably put 100 on those guys... But since "Technically" you are correct and Paly Beat Cen 10 something like 10 years ago, lets just say that there is no reason in the last 10 years for Cen10 to come up North here and play a game.... They can get Better competition not named DLS down in So Cal.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBigdaddybloom Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Cal 14 said: Dude, you’re always selling NorCal short. Gets old after a while. Last I checked, Centennial is 0-1 against CCS teams and wasn’t alway dominant against Clovis West when they played. Wouldn’t give Serra or Valley Christian a shot? Did you give Palo Alto a shot? Serra (with their starting QB), for instance, was much better offensively than that Viking team. Fresno Central would be a handful for any team not named Mater Dei or St. John Bosco. Send them down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippers Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 5 hours ago, frankyjames said: This return to the original format began with the CIF Football Advisory Committee at their April 2014 meeting Oh, and since you have having problems comprehending, it began with the CIF Football Advisory Committee. Who was the head of this committee? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extremely Humble Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Cal 14 said: Dude, you’re always selling NorCal short. Gets old after a while. Last I checked, Centennial is 0-1 against CCS teams and wasn’t alway dominant against Clovis West when they played. Wouldn’t give Serra or Valley Christian a shot? Did you give Palo Alto a shot? Serra (with their starting QB), for instance, was much better offensively than that Viking team. Fresno Central would be a handful for any team not named Mater Dei or St. John Bosco. OC just really, really hates Folsom. He loves DLS and a lot of SoCal teams. I wouldn’t necessarily peg him as a NorCal fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dntn31 Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 FSW TV game is Servite/MV. PrepZone has the other 3 D1 games plus Poly/Rancho Cucamonga. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ararar Posted November 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Rippers said: Oh, and since you have having problems comprehending, it began with the CIF Football Advisory Committee. Who was the head of this committee? Pete Saco, Tournament Director official title of Saco which means he was the head of the SBG tournament Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammyswordsman Posted November 12, 2019 Report Share Posted November 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, dntn31 said: FSW TV game is Servite/MV. PrepZone has the other 3 D1 games plus Poly/Rancho Cucamonga. Which Nor cal games are they showing? 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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