World Citizen Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 On 8/2/2018 at 11:58 AM, Eddyr2 said: That sounds like fascism. Should a gay baker be forced to make a cake that says “Marriage is only between one man and one woman”, if not why not? If they don’t arent their beliefs to fragile to be challenged? I’m am always for liberty over force. First of all the picture wasn't about Catholics or the baker, it was a general statement that covers all religions. And I don't know but I assume that the gay couple wasn't asking the baker to write "only gays should get married and the hell with Catholics". Probably wanted their names or something but at any rate it is already been decided by SCOTUS. To answer your question, if the baker was gay and a person wanted him to write that "marriage is only between one man and one woman" (unless you are Mormon), the baker should write that. Seriously, what is the problem bc they are just words on a cake. At the end of the day what changes? A person can still go home and practice their faith or hate of gay people or not practice their faith, it's up to them and no one is stopping them. It's a choice to discriminate and a persons beliefs, I would hope, should be able to withstand baking a damn cake. I fail to see how baking a cake destroys a persons faith and if I'm not mistaken the word "cake" does not appear in the bible. Fascism? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddyr2 Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 27 minutes ago, World Citizen said: First of all the picture wasn't about Catholics or the baker, it was a general statement that covers all religions. And I don't know but I assume that the gay couple wasn't asking the baker to write "only gays should get married and the hell with Catholics". Probably wanted their names or something but at any rate it is already been decided by SCOTUS. To answer your question, if the baker was gay and a person wanted him to write that "marriage is only between one man and one woman" (unless you are Mormon), the baker should write that. Seriously, what is the problem bc they are just words on a cake. At the end of the day what changes? A person can still go home and practice their faith or hate of gay people or not practice their faith, it's up to them and no one is stopping them. It's a choice to discriminate and a persons beliefs, I would hope, should be able to withstand baking a damn cake. I fail to see how baking a cake destroys a persons faith and if I'm not mistaken the word "cake" does not appear in the bible. Fascism? Really? Yes. Forcing people and business owners to do things against there will with the force of the State is Fasism by definition. We are give freedom and our Constitution protects our freedoms. The first two freedoms it protects, before the freedom of the press, before the freedom to bear arms, before the freedom to to protest, before the freedom to have due process, are the our freedoms to expression our religion and the freedom of speech. if we amend the constitution and remove those two freedoms, then you can force me to do whatever you want me to do without my consent for any reason. I will have to make that cake, but that won’t be freedom that would be oppression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World Citizen Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 11 minutes ago, Eddyr2 said: Yes. Forcing people and business owners to do things against there will with the force of the State is Fasism by definition. We are give freedom and our Constitution protects our freedoms. The first two freedoms it protects, before the freedom of the press, before the freedom to bear arms, before the freedom to to protest, before the freedom to have due process, are the our freedoms to expression our religion and the freedom of speech. if we amend the constitution and remove those two freedoms, then you can force me to do whatever you want me to do without my consent for any reason. I will have to make that cake, but that won’t be freedom that would be oppression. What about freedom from religion? I still do not see how anybody's religion is being denied. It's a cake man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddyr2 Posted August 3, 2018 Report Share Posted August 3, 2018 11 minutes ago, World Citizen said: What about freedom from religion? We are free not to have religion. In fact the vast vast vast Majority of our society in the US is secular. You are free not to interact with anyone who is religious or any religious institution. 14 minutes ago, World Citizen said: I still do not see how anybody's religion is being denied. Forcing people to do something against their faith is denying someone freedoms to express their religion. 18 minutes ago, World Citizen said: It's a cake man. Yep, it’s just a cake. So why force someone to make it for you that doesn’t what to? It’s a cake man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World Citizen Posted August 4, 2018 Report Share Posted August 4, 2018 7 hours ago, Eddyr2 said: We are free not to have religion. In fact the vast vast vast Majority of our society in the US is secular. You are free not to interact with anyone who is religious or any religious institution. Forcing people to do something against their faith is denying someone freedoms to express their religion. Yep, it’s just a cake. So why force someone to make it for you that doesn’t what to? It’s a cake man. I'm just not familiar with any reference That speaks to the sins of baking a cake for a gay wedding. Baking a cake > a persons faith If the baker did bake for the gay couple, would he be a sinner? Is there no freedom for the baker to choose a different interpretation about what God means for them? Where does his faith go if he makes a cake? Can he get it back or is it lost forever? These are important questions bc the bakers faith is what is important and all avenues that can lead to saving it must be taken. And we might want to try and strengthen the bakers faith so it's isn't so easily destroyed. If that is what's important anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddyr2 Posted August 4, 2018 Report Share Posted August 4, 2018 1 hour ago, World Citizen said: I'm just not familiar with any reference That speaks to the sins of baking a cake for a gay wedding. Neither am I. But if someone feels that a gay wedding is contrary to God’s will, I can see why they would not want to CREATE art for the event. 1 hour ago, World Citizen said: Baking a cake > a persons faith Baking a cake = creating art = speech the “State” can not compel by force anyone to use or not to use their “speech” against their will. If their “will” is based on their faith that only strengthens their case against the “State”. 1 hour ago, World Citizen said: If the baker did bake for the gay couple, would he be a sinner? I don’t know, I don’t know his conscience, seems he feels that it would be. 1 hour ago, World Citizen said: Is there no freedom for the baker to choose a different interpretation about what God means for them? Yes, just like the baker is free to choose the interpretation he did choose about what God means from them. 1 hour ago, World Citizen said: Where does his faith go if he makes a cake? Not sure what you mean by this. If his faith “goes”, not sure what that would mean. 1 hour ago, World Citizen said: Can he get it back or is it lost forever? Luke 15:4-7 4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.' 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. 1 hour ago, World Citizen said: These are important questions bc the bakers faith is what is important and all avenues that can lead to saving it must be taken. And we might want to try and strengthen the bakers faith so it's isn't so easily destroyed. If that is what's important anyway. His faith, your faith, my faith and every American’s faith is the most important right we have according to the founding fathers and the constitution. That why the 1st 2 protected rights we have are about religious freedom: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” we can always amend the constitution to remove these lines from the bill of right. Then the State can force anyone to do anything against their faith or lack there of. But that would be called tyranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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