For All the Posters that Harp of how Great the Economy is: Food for Thought!

[concha]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

The total number of foreign students who work STEM jobs in the US may well be increasing, because those jobs are increasing and because we don't have enough Americans to do them.

But this doesn't tell us what percentage of foreign students are applying elsewhere to pursue STEM degrees or are returning home after graduating or are going somewhere else to work. 

Other nations' advanced education infrastructures are nowhere near the size of ours. Not much capacity elsewhere for serious numbers of them to go. 

[ohio]

22 minutes ago, concha said:

Lots of the foreigners who come here for advanced degrees stay.

This "no opportunity" and idea that there's a major migration of brain power out of the US is silly.

They stay if they took majors that  and are in demand and get good paying jobs post graduation.  I'm a foreigner from Croatia who came here when I was young, and most foreigners who come here take utilitarian majors like finance, premed, law, and IT related courses.

There is still plenty of opportunity here, but it is getting harder for recent due to high housing cost, low paying entry jobs, and large student loans.

[Belly Bob]

6 minutes ago, ohio said:

Exactly.  Many graduates with these types of degrees end up in the same jobs as people with no degree at all.  We have several in the security guard company that I currently work for.

Exactly. My wife and I have friends who own a few restaurants in the town in which we live. And the owners tell us that college students work for them while they're completing their degrees at the local university, and when they graduate, they just work more at the restaurant, because they can't find better paying jobs elsewhere. 

It's a shame. 

There are only about a dozen or so majors that I believe pay off economically, but universities usually offer well over a hundred degrees. The last time I checked, the University of Michigan offered over 200 different degrees. 

[ohio]

30 minutes ago, BigDrop said:

Germany is also the model for education and “craft” development.  An MBA is not the goal; it may be an apprenticeship and the governmental support to pursue this, free of debt after five or so years.  

Good post.  Many students graduate high school and college and have no employable skills.

[ohio]

21 minutes ago, concha said:

Frankly, if one of my kids said "Dad, I want to study psychology or English or sociology when I go to college", we'd sit down and have a serious talk. If they want to minor in something like that or get a dual major along with something more marketable, then fine.

And you would be right in doing so.  Many of these degrees pretty much equal no degree at all.

[ohio]

30 minutes ago, concha said:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2018/05/10/number-of-foreign-college-students-staying-and-working-in-u-s-after-graduation-surges/

What is true?

The problem is that many students won't take STEM type majors  that are in high demand.

[concha]

7 minutes ago, ohio said:

They stay if they took majors that  and are in demand and get good paying jobs post graduation.  I'm a foreigner from Croatia who came here when I was young, and most foreigners who come here take utilitarian majors like finance, premed, law, and IT related courses.

There is still plenty of opportunity here, but it is getting harder for recent due to high housing cost, low paying entry jobs, and large student loans.

The world of the 1950s and 1960s when America possessed over half of the world's industrial power and her corporations had no rivals and for most there was little need for education beyond a high school diploma is long gone. We now need to compete but have culturally devolved into a place that does not put emphasis and urgency on education in the fields needed to compete and advance.

A comment was made earlier about revering philosophers. That's fine. But a nation full of philosophers is one that will go hungry and poor pretty damned quick. 

[DarterBlue]

3 minutes ago, ohio said:

The problem is that many students won't take STEM type majors  that are in high demand.

And the reason for that largely rests with the way in which Mathematics and Science is taught in the K12 system. It is difficult to master these subject areas if you don''t have good teachers unless you have parents with the requisite skills and the time to invest in the child's education.

It is also difficult to attract and keep good teachers in those disciplines if you don't compensate them adequately and provide an environment that encourages them to stay. 

[ohio]

15 minutes ago, concha said:

No arguments with any of that.

We live in a society now with a sense of entitlement. Other up-and-comers are hungrier and more serious about study in things like STEM.

Right now our university system - especially at the elite level - is #1 in the world and it's not close. But far too many students at these places are not from here and we do run the risk of more and more of them not staying.

Here in Georgia it is amazing to see the lists of National Merit students at the various high schools in the Atlanta area. Perhaps a majority are names from China, Korea and the Indian subcontinent. My son has been on his high school's varsity academic team for four years now. On the best teams you'll see mostly - and it's not close - kids of Indian and Asian descent and also a disproportionate number of Jewish kids. The parents who accompany them are typically first generation immigrants.  I hope some of the emphasis on serious education they bring rubs off on our society.  Participation trophies and "study whatever you feel like cause you're wonderful just cause you're you" is not a recipe for continued success.

Good post.  Today many American students are not as competative as are foreign students.  And it's not that they are not as smart as the foreign kids, but that there is not enough emphasis on education and studying.  If you go on public buses or libraries you will see Chinese girls studying while American kids are chatting, texting, or goofing around.  Guess who will do better in school and in life.

[DarterBlue]

1 hour ago, concha said:

A comment was made earlier about revering philosophers. That's fine. But a nation full of philosophers is one that will go hungry and poor pretty damned quick.

No one is saying you create a nation of philosophers. However, a country without philosophy is one doomed for mediocrity. As Belly Bob correctly points out, the first universities were founded by such individuals. Indeed, till the mid 19th century some of the greatest mathematicians and scientists were philosophers. To have universities solely train technocrats is no solution either. 

[ohio]

2 minutes ago, concha said:

The world of the 1950s and 1960s when America possessed over half of the world's industrial power and her corporations had no rivals and for most there was little need for education beyond a high school diploma is long gone. We now need to compete but have culturally devolved into a place that does not put emphasis and urgency on education in the fields needed to compete and advance.

A comment was made earlier about revering philosophers. That's fine. But a nation full of philosophers is one that will go hungry and poor pretty damned quick. 

I couldn't agree more.  Students today are not as hungry for education like people in that era were and foreigners are today.

[concha]

6 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

And the reason for that largely rests with the way in which Mathematics and Science is taught in the K12 system. It is difficult to master these subject areas if you don''t have good teachers unless you have parents with the requisite skills and the time to invest in the child's education.

It is also difficult to attract and keep good teachers in those disciplines if you don't compensate them adequately and provide an environment that encourages them to stay. 

Asian and Indian kids who don't necessarily have PhD parents seem to manage to have their kids do well. Guiding/pushing the kids to certain areas of study and making sure they hit the books...  Physics class, not Creative Writing. One or two hours minimum of study per night, not free rein to be on Instagram or playing Fortnite for hours on end...

[Belly Bob]

10 minutes ago, concha said:

No arguments with any of that.

We live in a society now with a sense of entitlement. Other up-and-comers are hungrier and more serious about study in things like STEM.

Right now our university system - especially at the elite level - is #1 in the world and it's not close. But far too many students at these places are not from here and we do run the risk of more and more of them not staying.

Here in Georgia it is amazing to see the lists of National Merit students at the various high schools in the Atlanta area. Perhaps a majority are names from China, Korea and the Indian subcontinent. My son has been on his high school's varsity academic team for four years now. On the best teams you'll see mostly - and it's not close - kids of Indian and Asian descent and also a disproportionate number of Jewish kids. The parents who accompany them are typically first generation immigrants.  I hope some of the emphasis on serious education they bring rubs off on our society.  Participation trophies and "study whatever you feel like cause you're wonderful just cause you're you" is not a recipe for continued success.

When was it otherwise?

Jews used to be excluded from schools like Harvard, and when they were admitted, non-Jews would complain that they ruined the curve because they studied too much. 

The same goes for Asian kids. White Americans haven't become suddenly entitled in this generation. Americans still work more hours on average than anyone else, I believe. But white Americans have never valued education the way that some other cultures have. 

The difference is that the well-paying jobs that hardworking but uneducated white Americans used to be able to do have largely disappeared and the ones that have remained have been denigrated. There is no shame in knowing how to fix a car or build a deck, but we've somehow managed to make jobs like that shameful. 

And of course the cost of houses and medical insurance has increased etc.

I think it's serious mistake to act as if American's problems are due to a sense of entitlement.

 

 

[Belly Bob]

16 minutes ago, ohio said:

And you would be right in doing so.  Many of these degrees pretty much equal no degree at all.

Worse, in the sense that the jobs you can land are about the the same but now you're 30K in debt. 

[concha]

3 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

No one is saying you create a nation of philosophers. However, a country with philosophy is one doomed for mediocrity. As Belly Bob correctly points out, the first universities were founded by such individuals. Indeed, till the mid 19th century some of the greatest mathematicians and scientists were philosophers. To have universities solely train technocrats is no solution either. 

Science was in its infancy and, in fact, not really even in existence when many of the great universities were founded.  Today, the philosopher will be the exception and the physicist and engineer the majority in any nation that plans to lead.

[ohio]

Just now, Belly Bob said:

Worse, in the sense that the jobs you can land are about the the same but now you're 30K in debt. 

Good point.

[Belly Bob]

26 minutes ago, concha said:

Other nations' advanced education infrastructures are nowhere near the size of ours. Not much capacity elsewhere for serious numbers of them to go. 

Right, but they're making moves to change that. 

I have a number of friends with PhDs who are now working jobs at universities in Asia and the Middle East.

Other countries are investing in universities because they recognize that they're suffering from brain drain and taking the steps necessary to hold onto their talented people.

They're not there yet, but they're moving in that direction. 

And we should do something here to right the ship, even if that is just doing a better job of telling our people that a degree in Gender Studies doesn't mean shit to a potential employer. 

[concha]

3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

When was it otherwise?

Jews used to be excluded from schools like Harvard, and when they were admitted, non-Jews would complain that they ruined the curve because they studied too much. 

The same goes for Asian kids. White Americans haven't become suddenly entitled in this generation. Americans still work more hours on average than anyone else, I believe. But white Americans have never valued education the way that some other cultures have. 

The difference is that the well-paying jobs that hardworking but uneducated white Americans used to be able to do have largely disappeared and the ones that have remained have been denigrated. There is no shame in knowing how to fix a car or build a deck, but we've somehow managed to make jobs like that shameful. 

And of course the cost of houses and medical insurance has increased etc.

I think it's serious mistake to act as if American's problems are due to a sense of entitlement.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

When was it otherwise?

Jews used to be excluded from schools like Harvard, and when they were admitted, non-Jews would complain that they ruined the curve because they studied too much. 

The same goes for Asian kids. White Americans haven't become suddenly entitled in this generation. Americans still work more hours on average than anyone else, I believe. But white Americans have never valued education the way that some other cultures have. 

The difference is that the well-paying jobs that hardworking but uneducated white Americans used to be able to do have largely disappeared and the ones that have remained have been denigrated. There is no shame in knowing how to fix a car or build a deck, but we've somehow managed to make jobs like that shameful. 

And of course the cost of houses and medical insurance has increased etc.

I think it's serious mistake to act as if American's problems are due to a sense of entitlement.

 

 

Jews are a special case.  Persecution throughout the ages has created a culture that values education and "portable" skills versus others. Ex. A kid with medical skills can pick up and move if the pogroms start somewhere, and will be able to quickly be of value wherever they go. A jeweler can take portable wealth with them... 

In a certain sense I agree with you. Perhaps the big change in recent decades is that any and every schmo who manages to get (an ever easier to obtain) high school diploma feels entitled to go to college and live out their own little Animal House experience. Some dipshit B to C student from East Buttfuk High wants to go to college and study sociology. That's just effing stupid.

[Belly Bob]

4 minutes ago, concha said:

Science was in its infancy and, in fact, not really even in existence when many of the great universities were founded.  Today, the philosopher will be the exception and the physicist and engineer the majority in any nation that plans to lead.

They'd tried that in Russia. It doesn't work. 

It turns out that you do want your engineers to read Locke. 

[concha]

Just now, Belly Bob said:

They'd tried that in Russia. It doesn't work. 

It turns out that you do want your engineers to read Locke. 

You mean the Soviet Union. Please, for the love of Pete, let's not go down that rat hole.

[ohio]

9 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

And the reason for that largely rests with the way in which Mathematics and Science is taught in the K12 system. It is difficult to master these subject areas if you don''t have good teachers unless you have parents with the requisite skills and the time to invest in the child's education.

It is also difficult to attract and keep good teachers in those disciplines if you don't compensate them adequately and provide an environment that encourages them to stay. 

I agree with you on this.  But there is more to it than that.  I went to a public a public HS in Cleveland and still got a score of 690 on my SAT (but only a 460 on the English section ____the English language is a bitch for foreign speakers).  Outside of some students in honors classes most students just didn't care about education especially in the math and science classes.  And even today, many foreign kids outperform their American counterparts even though they are getting the same education from the same teachers and schools.

The biggest problem just may be a lack of emphasis on education by students and their parents.

[Belly Bob]

9 minutes ago, concha said:

 

Jews are a special case.  Persecution throughout the ages has created a culture that values education and "portable" skills versus others. Ex. A kid with medical skills can pick up and move if the pogroms start somewhere, and will be able to quickly be of value wherever they go. A jeweler can take portable wealth with them... 

In a certain sense I agree with you. Perhaps the big change in recent decades is that any and every schmo who manages to get (an ever easier to obtain) high school diploma feels entitled to go to college and live out their own little Animal House experience. Some dipshit B to C student from East Buttfuk High wants to go to college and study sociology. That's just effing stupid.

Well, I don't disagree, not given how our universities are structured. 

I spent some time in the UK, and the sense I got there was that it's harder to get into universities, but it's free for all citizens. That system makes more sense to me.

Here, almost anyone can get in somewhere or other. They hang out for 4 or 5 or 6 years now. They don't learn shit. And then we turn them loose, with 30K of debt, and no employable skills. 

[Belly Bob]

2 minutes ago, concha said:

You mean the Soviet Union. Please, for the love of Pete, let's not go down that rat hole.

Yeah.

They decided that the the university didn't need a philosophy department, since they had already solved the problems of values and politics, and that universities should produce only engineers. 

It didn't work out. 

[concha]

2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Well, I don't disagree, not given how our universities are structured. 

I spent some time in the UK, the sense I got there was that it's harder to get into universities, but it's free for all citizens. That system makes more sense to me.

Here, almost anyone can get in somewhere or other. They hang out for 4 or 5 or 6 years now. They don't learn shit. And then we turn them loose, with 30K of debt, and no employable skills. 

My dad is English (and I am a dual-national who got his Master's there).

He went to university for free, because he was the best student at his grammar school.

These days there are far more universities in the UK and it is a far, far less exclusive club. I believe there is a much higher financial burden on the students themselves these day also.

[concha]

Just now, Belly Bob said:

Yeah.

They decided that the the university didn't need a philosophy department, since they had already solved the problems of values and politics, and that universities should produce only engineers. 

It didn't work out. 

Not that simple.