For All the Posters that Harp of how Great the Economy is: Food for Thought!

[DarterBlue]

One of my children left the USA for much the same reasons. No, he did not leave behind student loan debt. But what he left behind was a perceived lack of opportunity, despite his US and Thai degrees. Today he is happily living half way around the world, in China, an authoritarian, un-democratic, country. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/26/he-moved-to-a-jungle-in-india-to-escape-his-student-debt--and-hes-not-alone-.html

Something is terribly wrong when a country's youth decide to leave for these reasons. I believe the USA, if I remember correctly, was once the country of choice for individuals such as the ones mentioned in this article. Today, the only ones interested in coming here are: 1. The so called invaders marching towards the southern border; 2. Asian, mainly from south Asia, who come to California to fill the high tech jobs as our Universities no longer seem capable of producing the talent for them. 

Anthony Scaramucchi, Trump's hatchet man for a brief period, remarked that, "fish rot from the head." I don't know if this applies in this situation, but something certainly seems rotten in Denmark!

[concha]

The guy is a stupid, contemptible welcher.

He gets a degree in philosophy and wonders why he can't get a good-paying job? And then goes for a Master's in comparative lit?

Are you serious?

[Nolebull813]

24 minutes ago, concha said:

The guy is a stupid, contemptible welcher.

He gets a degree in philosophy and wonders why he can't get a good-paying job? And then goes for a Master's in comparative lit?

Are you serious?

Damn, so should I tell me children majoring in Gender Studies and minoring in Lesbian Dance Therapy doesn't carry the same weight it used to? 😂

[concha]

9 minutes ago, Nolebull813 said:

Damn, so should I tell me children majoring in Gender Studies and minoring in Lesbian Dance Therapy doesn't carry the same weight it used to? 😂

The clown they lead off the article with a guy who goes after bullshit degrees and graduated in the middle of the Obama presidency. Maybe now that there are millions more jobs than people looking for work he should think about coming home, getting a job and taking care of his obligations.

The sense of entitlement is unreal.

Hell, one of the key reasons for student debt being so high is from the government filling the loan trough to begin with.

[Belly Bob]

58 minutes ago, concha said:

The guy is a stupid, contemptible welcher.

He gets a degree in philosophy and wonders why he can't get a good-paying job? And then goes for a Master's in comparative lit?

Are you serious?

Maybe I missed the @DarterBlue's point and the point of the article, but it wasn't about the philosophy major but about a systematic problem with student loan debt in the United States.

The article states that the student loan debt has gone from 400 billion in 2005 to 1.4 trillion in 2017 and is projected to grow to 2 trillion by 2022.

That's what we'd call a systematic problem, not a problem about the first guy in the article. 

[concha]

2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Maybe I missed the @DarterBlue's point and the point of the article, but it wasn't about the philosophy major but about a systematic problem with student loan debt in the United States.

The article states that the student loan debt has gone from 400 billion in 2005 to 1.4 trillion in 2017 and is projected to grow to 2 trillion by 2022.

That's what we'd call a systematic problem, not a problem about the first guy in the article. 

DB clearly talks about kids leaving the country. Lack of opportunity.

We now have a 3.7% unemployment rate and millions of jobs that need to be filled.

But we are provided an article about welchers skipping their obligations and heading overseas.

Perhaps part of the systemic problem is kids feeling entitled to get college degrees in whatever they want no matter what their academic performance in high school and then feeling that they are owed high-paying jobs afterward just 'cause.

 

[Belly Bob]

26 minutes ago, concha said:

The clown they lead off the article with a guy who goes after bullshit degrees and graduated in the middle of the Obama presidency. Maybe now that there are millions more jobs than people looking for work he should think about coming home, getting a job and taking care of his obligations.

The sense of entitlement is unreal.

Hell, one of the key reasons for student debt being so high is from the government filling the loan trough to begin with.

Young people have been told that if they graduate from college, they will be able to secure a good job. That's why so many young people go to college these days.

I'm surprised that anyone would be shocked that they would feel entitled to gainful employment after they've done what they've been told they should by their parents and teachers in order to land such a job.

It seems to me that it's a failure of education, that as a country we're not doing a great job of educating young people about their job prospects and about the burden of student loan debt and about the true economic value of a wide range of college degrees.

[HSFBfan]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

Young people have been told that if they graduate from college, they will be able to secure a good job. That's why so many young people go to college these days.

I'm surprised that anyone would be shocked that they would feel entitled to gainful employment after they've done what they've been told they should by their parents and teachers in order to land such a job.

It seems to me that it's a failure of education, that as a country we're not doing a great job of educating young people about their job prospects and about the burden of student loan debt and about the true economic value of a wide range of college degrees.

Yep too many people bought into that farce and are significantly in debt and are underemployed. 

I read an article in the wall street journal a while back that said only about 1% of the population should be in college. The rest of us should be doing other types of work that dont need college degrees. Jobs that vocational training will help u get. 

 

[DarterBlue]

3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Maybe I missed the @DarterBlue's point and the point of the article, but it wasn't about the philosophy major but about a systematic problem with student loan debt in the United States.

The article states that the student loan debt has gone from 400 billion in 2005 to 1.4 trillion in 2017 and is projected to grow to 2 trillion by 2022.

That's what we'd call a systematic problem, not a problem about the first guy in the article. 

Belly Bob, thank you for your intelligent post!!

Of course the other responders came out with their usual talking points, in the process missing the point completely either due to ignorance, lack of comprehension skills, or willful obfuscation. And then they wonder why I have no respect for them? 

Also, there used to be a time when Philosophers were revered, I believe at least one of the first developed, civilized, Western Countries, which is revered in courses in the classics, was renown for producing philosophers. But today they are to be scorned? It only goes to show how hollow, how totally lacking in perspective so many members of this forum are. I suppose it helps explain why we have gotten to where we currently are. For without the ability to listen, understand and appreciate multiple perspectives, we are surely doomed as a country. 

I came here as an optimistic immigrant and, indeed, was awed and held in great reverence, the society built over the scant course of a little over 200 years. Today, I see all the symptoms of rot, blight and decline, both physically and in the level of debate, that are characteristic of societies that are in sharp decline.

There is still time to turn this around; but with each passing day, the window gets smaller and smaller. One day the door will slam shut and we may end up like the ancient Greeks and Romans, civilizations that are good to study, as they lend perspective as to what to do to avoid terminal societal illness.    

[Belly Bob]

17 minutes ago, concha said:

DB clearly talks about kids leaving the country. Lack of opportunity.

We now have a 3.7% unemployment rate and millions of jobs that need to be filled.

But we are provided an article about welchers skipping their obligations and heading overseas.

Perhaps part of the systemic problem is kids feeling entitled to get college degrees in whatever they want no matter what their academic performance in high school and then feeling that they are owed high-paying jobs afterward just 'cause.

Are there millions of jobs available that would cover the bills, when the bills include the $400 per month that a person has to pay on $30K of student loan debt, which is now the national average?

That is part of the systematic problem. But it doesn't follow that young people are "stupid welchers". What follows is that the we should be doing a better job of educating them about the value of a college degree and about their true job prospects.

But that's not in the interest of universities or of the Departments of Education, and many parents don't know what's going on either. So teens and their parents agree to take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt, thinking that if you just get a degree, you'll be okay.

Things are starting to change, but slowly, and the 2 trillion dollars of debt hanging over the millions of Americans in their 20s and 30s remains. 

[HSFBfan]

Just now, Belly Bob said:

Are there millions of jobs available that would cover the bills, when the bills include the $400 per month that a person has to pay on $30K of student loan debt, which is now the national average?

That is part of the systematic problem. But it doesn't follow that young people are "stupid welchers". What follows is that the we should be doing a better job at educating them about the value of a college degree and about their true job prospects.

But that's not in the interest of universities or of the Departments of Education, and many parents don't know what's going on either. So teens and their parents agree to take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt, thinking that if you just get a degree, you'll be okay.

Things are starting to change, but slowly, and the 2 trillion dollars of debt hanging over the millions of Americans in their 20s and 30s remains. 

Great great post

[BigDrop]

3 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

Belly Bob, thank you for your intelligent post!!

Of course the other responders came out with their usual talking points, in the process missing the point completely either due to ignorance, lack of comprehension skills, or willful obfuscation. And then they wonder why I have no respect for them? 

Also, there used to be a time when Philosophers were revered, I believe at least one of the first developed, civilized, Western Countries, which is revered in courses in the classics, was renown for producing philosophers. But today they are to be scorned? It only goes to show how hollow, how totally lacking in perspective so many members of this forum are. I suppose it helps explain why we have gotten to where we currently are. For without the ability to listen, understand and appreciate multiple perspectives, we are surely doomed as a country. 

I came here as an optimistic immigrant and, indeed, was awed and held in great reverence, the society built over the scant course of a little over 200 years. Today, I see all the symptoms of rot, blight and decline, both physically and in the level of debate, that are characteristic of societies that are in sharp decline.

There is still time to turn this around; but with each passing day, the window gets smaller and smaller. One day the door will slam shut and we may end up like the ancient Greeks and Romans, civilizations that are good to study, as they lend perspective as to what to do to avoid terminal societal illness.    

Superb post.  Most on this board have no idea of the sophistication and maturity of other economies on earth.  Simplistically, whether it is the number of skyscrapers in a city or percentage who have healthcare many Americans simply do not understand or accept that we are different today.  That our skylines are no longer the tallest.  Or our healthcare the best.

We have become a destination for education but no longer a place to live.

Singapore, Munich, Geneva and many other elsewheres:  for many are now where to pursue one’s career and grow one’s family.

[Belly Bob]

11 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

Belly Bob, thank you for your intelligent post!!

Of course the other responders came out with their usual talking points, in the process missing the point completely either due to ignorance, lack of comprehension skills, or willful obfuscation. And then they wonder why I have no respect for them? 

Also, there used to be a time when Philosophers were revered, I believe at least one of the first developed, civilized, Western Countries, which is revered in courses in the classics, was renown for producing philosophers. But today they are to be scorned? It only goes to show how hollow, how totally lacking in perspective so many members of this forum are. I suppose it helps explain why we have gotten to where we currently are. For without the ability to listen, understand and appreciate multiple perspectives, we are surely doomed as a country. 

I came here as an optimistic immigrant and, indeed, was awed and held in great reverence, the society built over the scant course of a little over 200 years. Today, I see all the symptoms of rot, blight and decline, both physically and in the level of debate, that are characteristic of societies that are in sharp decline.

There is still time to turn this around; but with each passing day, the window gets smaller and smaller. One day the door will slam shut and we may end up like the ancient Greeks and Romans, civilizations that are good to study, as they lend perspective as to what to do to avoid terminal societal illness.    

I appreciate the post.

The university itself was created by philosophers. Plato and Aristotle founded the first institutions of higher learning. And the university was reintroduced into Europe in the Middle Ages again by philosophers. 

It is a very recent trend to think of a university education as means to making more money. It's not supposed to be a trade school, or that was never part of the tradition. But that is how it's being sold now to young people.

And universities are not doing their students any favors by telling them that if they just earn a degree -- it doesn't matter in what -- they will make a good living, because that's just false. 

[concha]

2 minutes ago, BigDrop said:

Superb post.  Most on this board have no idea of the sophistication and maturity of other economies on earth.  Simplistically, whether it is the number of skyscrapers in a city or percentage who have healthcare many Americans simply do not understand or accept that we are different today.  That our skylines are no longer the tallest.  Or our healthcare the best.

We have become a destination for education but no longer a place to live.

Singapore, Munich, Geneva and many other elsewheres:  for many are now where to pursue one’s career and grow one’s family.

Lots of the foreigners who come here for advanced degrees stay.

This "no opportunity" and idea that there's a major migration of brain power out of the US is silly.

[BigDrop]

Germany is also the model for education and “craft” development.  An MBA is not the goal; it may be an apprenticeship and the governmental support to pursue this, free of debt after five or so years.  

[BigDrop]

1 minute ago, concha said:

Lots of the foreigners who come here for advanced degrees stay.

This "no opportunity" and idea that there's a major migration of brain power out of the US is silly.

It is true today.

[concha]

4 minutes ago, BigDrop said:

It is true today.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2018/05/10/number-of-foreign-college-students-staying-and-working-in-u-s-after-graduation-surges/

What is true?

[Belly Bob]

9 minutes ago, concha said:

Lots of the foreigners who come here for advanced degrees stay.

This "no opportunity" and idea that there's a major migration of brain power out of the US is silly.

No, I don't think we're yet suffering from brain drain, but there are now other places where highly skilled foreigners are going besides the US to work and live, and an increasing percentage of foreigners who receive a higher education here are now returning home or going elsewhere besides the US to live and work.

And we know that our primary school students have fallen behind. 

And we know that China and other places are trying to get their own universities off the ground to rival ours. 

They're coming up. 

[concha]

Just now, GardenStateBaller said:

I blame the parents. Responsible ones don't allow their kids to get into this situation. If a kid wants to attend college but can't afford it, then go to a community or junior college first for a few years. Or instead of going to an expensive private, enroll a a local state college. As a parent, I'd consider myself a failure if I allowed this to happen to my children. I'd take whatever earthly measures it took to avoid this dilemma. Personally as a parent, I feel it's my responsibility to pay for my kids' college educations. And I've made this promise to each of them. They're on their own for grad school if they desire. I realize all economic situations vary. Just my two cents. 

Frankly, if one of my kids said "Dad, I want to study psychology or English or sociology when I go to college", we'd sit down and have a serious talk. If they want to minor in something like that or get a dual major along with something more marketable, then fine.

[ohio]

1 hour ago, DarterBlue said:

One of my children left the USA for much the same reasons. No, he did not leave behind student loan debt. But what he left behind was a perceived lack of opportunity, despite his US and Thai degrees. Today he is happily living half way around the world, in China, an authoritarian, un-democratic, country. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/26/he-moved-to-a-jungle-in-india-to-escape-his-student-debt--and-hes-not-alone-.html

Something is terribly wrong when a country's youth decide to leave for these reasons. I believe the USA, if I remember correctly, was once the country of choice for individuals such as the ones mentioned in this article. Today, the only ones interested in coming here are: 1. The so called invaders marching towards the southern border; 2. Asian, mainly from south Asia, who come to California to fill the high tech jobs as our Universities no longer seem capable of producing the talent for them. 

Anthony Scaramucchi, Trump's hatchet man for a brief period, remarked that, "fish rot from the head." I don't know if this applies in this situation, but something certainly seems rotten in Denmark!

Two of the biggest problems that young people have are finding good paying jobs and skyrocketing housing costs.  Student loans also add further financial difficulties.

Other than student loan issues, students in Europe are also having the same problems.  Europeans are also losing jobs to foreign countries and housing is starting to skyrocket again and the unemployment rates are even higher than here.  I don't know enough about Asian countries to make a sensible comment.

Over the decades European countries have gotten wealthier as well, and their standard of living is as good as it is in America and sometimes even better.  So there may be little or no reason for them to want to come to the US, no matter what Trump believes.  Although less economically wealthy European countries like Bulgaria, Ukraine, and Bosnia do have a good percentage of people who want to migrate to our country.  As for me, I may just move back to Croatia when I retire since its standard of living is similar to the West and it is a beautiful place with little social unrest.

I don't believe that this is only a Trump related problem, but one that has been brewing for about two decades irregardless of who the president is.  Trumps biggest issue is the increased social, political, and financial divide that is augmenting and it is something that he is not addressing.  If anything he is escalating it.

[ohio]

15 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

I appreciate the post.

The university itself was created by philosophers. Plato and Aristotle founded the first institutions of higher learning. And the university was reintroduced into Europe in the Middle Ages again by philosophers. 

It is a very recent trend to think of a university education as means to making more money. It's not supposed to be a trade school, or that was never part of the tradition. But that is how it's being sold now to young people.

And universities are not doing their students any favors by telling them that if they just earn a degree -- it doesn't matter in what -- they will make a good living, because that's just false. 

Exactly.  Many graduates with these types of degrees end up in the same jobs as people with no degree at all.  We have several in the security guard company that I currently work for.

[ohio]

29 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Are there millions of jobs available that would cover the bills, when the bills include the $400 per month that a person has to pay on $30K of student loan debt, which is now the national average?

That is part of the systematic problem. But it doesn't follow that young people are "stupid welchers". What follows is that the we should be doing a better job of educating them about the value of a college degree and about their true job prospects.

But that's not in the interest of universities or of the Departments of Education, and many parents don't know what's going on either. So teens and their parents agree to take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt, thinking that if you just get a degree, you'll be okay.

Things are starting to change, but slowly, and the 2 trillion dollars of debt hanging over the millions of Americans in their 20s and 30s remains. 

High housing costs are also a big problem.  One of the reasons that so many are forced to live with their parents in their adult years.

[Belly Bob]

7 minutes ago, concha said:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2018/05/10/number-of-foreign-college-students-staying-and-working-in-u-s-after-graduation-surges/

What is true?

The total number of foreign students who work STEM jobs in the US may well be increasing, because those jobs are increasing and because we don't have enough Americans to do them.

But this doesn't tell us what percentage of foreign students are applying elsewhere to pursue STEM degrees or are returning home after graduating or are going somewhere else to work. 

[DarterBlue]

Just now, Belly Bob said:

The total number of foreign students who work STEM jobs in the US may well be increasing, because those jobs are increasing and because we don't have enough Americans to do them.

But this doesn't tell us what percentage of foreign students are applying elsewhere to pursue STEM degrees or are returning home after graduating or are going somewhere else to work. 

Exactly!

[concha]

3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

No, I don't think we're yet suffering from brain drain, but there are now other places where highly skilled foreigners are going besides the US to work and live, and an increasing percentage of foreigners who receive a higher education here are now returning home or going elsewhere besides the US to live and work.

And we know that our primary school students have fallen behind. 

And we know that China and other places are trying to get their own universities off the ground to rival ours. 

They're coming up. 

No arguments with any of that.

We live in a society now with a sense of entitlement. Other up-and-comers are hungrier and more serious about study in things like STEM.

Right now our university system - especially at the elite level - is #1 in the world and it's not close. But far too many students at these places are not from here and we do run the risk of more and more of them not staying.

Here in Georgia it is amazing to see the lists of National Merit students at the various high schools in the Atlanta area. Perhaps a majority are names from China, Korea and the Indian subcontinent. My son has been on his high school's varsity academic team for four years now. On the best teams you'll see mostly - and it's not close - kids of Indian and Asian descent and also a disproportionate number of Jewish kids. The parents who accompany them are typically first generation immigrants.  I hope some of the emphasis on serious education they bring rubs off on our society.  Participation trophies and "study whatever you feel like cause you're wonderful just cause you're you" is not a recipe for continued success.