For All the Posters that Harp of how Great the Economy is: Food for Thought!

[ohio]

36 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Exactly. My wife and I have friends who own a few restaurants in the town in which we live. And the owners tell us that college students work for them while they're completing their degrees at the local university, and when they graduate, they just work more at the restaurant, because they can't find better paying jobs elsewhere. 

It's a shame. 

There are only about a dozen or so majors that I believe pay off economically, but universities usually offer well over a hundred degrees. The last time I checked, the University of Michigan offered over 200 different degrees. 

I completely agree again.  These worthless degrees do little or nothing to benefit students, but they do augment the coffers of these colleges.

[ohio]

26 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

No one is saying you create a nation of philosophers. However, a country with philosophy is one doomed for mediocrity. As Belly Bob correctly points out, the first universities were founded by such individuals. Indeed, till the mid 19th century some of the greatest mathematicians and scientists were philosophers. To have universities solely train technocrats is no solution either. 

Very true.  Science and Technology related jobs have gotten so sophisticated that a student needs a specialized education to be employable.  Philosophers need not apply.

[Belly Bob]

28 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

And the reason for that largely rests with the way in which Mathematics and Science is taught in the K12 system. It is difficult to master these subject areas if you don''t have good teachers unless you have parents with the requisite skills and the time to invest in the child's education.

It is also difficult to attract and keep good teachers in those disciplines if you don't compensate them adequately and provide an environment that encourages them to stay. 

That's a great point. 

Our people with degrees in math and science don't want to teach K12. So our students suffer. 

I live in a university town, and it our schools are always rated among the very best in the state, but the dirty secret is that our kids do so well because they have professors for parents, not because their teachers are so awesome. 

We might be able to compete in math and science if we could get and keep talented math and science teachers in K12. 

[Belly Bob]

6 minutes ago, concha said:

Not that simple.

None of it is. 

You might want to state more than the obvious. 

[Belly Bob]

9 minutes ago, concha said:

My dad is English (and I am a dual-national who got his Master's there).

He went to university for free, because he was the best student at his grammar school.

These days there are far more universities in the UK and it is a far, far less exclusive club. I believe there is a much higher financial burden on the students themselves these day also.

I Googled it, and that does seem true for England. 

But I was mostly in Scotland where (Google says) college is still free for those under 25 who have no kids and who aren't married. 

[ohio]

30 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

When was it otherwise?

Jews used to be excluded from schools like Harvard, and when they were admitted, non-Jews would complain that they ruined the curve because they studied too much.  That's what's happening now in a way with foreign kids in high schools.  Many parents complain that foreign kids are killing grading curves and getting into better colleges.

The same goes for Asian kids. White Americans haven't become suddenly entitled in this generation. Americans still work more hours on average than anyone else, I believe. But white Americans have never valued education the way that some other cultures have. Very true.

The difference is that the well-paying jobs that hardworking but uneducated white Americans used to be able to do have largely disappeared and the ones that have remained have been denigrated. There is no shame in knowing how to fix a car or build a deck, but we've somehow managed to make jobs like that shameful.  Very true, again.

And of course the cost of houses and medical insurance has increased etc.

I think it's serious mistake to act as if American's problems are due to a sense of entitlement. It's more due to changing technological times and increased world competition.

 

 

 

[ohio]

Just now, ohio said:

 

nm

[concha]

11 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

None of it is. 

You might want to state more than the obvious. 

Central control of the economy, lack of free market competition, lack of personal choice and freedom, lack of incentive (personal gain)...

[Belly Bob]

45 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

No one is saying you create a nation of philosophers. However, a country with philosophy is one doomed for mediocrity. As Belly Bob correctly points out, the first universities were founded by such individuals. Indeed, till the mid 19th century some of the greatest mathematicians and scientists were philosophers. To have universities solely train technocrats is no solution either. 

It's not that different now.

Bertrand Russell got his first degree in mathematics and published the Principia before turning to philosophical problems.

Ludwig Wittgenstein studied engineering before turning to philosophy.

Willard Van Orman Quine got his first degree in mathematics and published widely in the subject before turning to philosophy. 

Saul Kripke got his only degree in mathematics and published widely in the subject before turning to philosophy. 

As long as you given intellectually curious people the freedom to read and to think, they will make their way to philosophy.

And (as you suggest) you will stunt your nation if you discourage those people from pursuing their interests.

The Western political state is itself a product of philosophy.

[Belly Bob]

3 minutes ago, concha said:

Central control of the economy, lack of free market competition, lack of personal choice and freedom, lack of incentive (personal gain)...

Sorry, I was talking about the products of their universities. 

[Mjd33]

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/15/the-rise-and-fall-of-affirmative-action

This case started last week and I’ll be excited when it gets to the Supreme Court. African Americans and Hispanics get few hundred point bumps on the SATs and Asians get docked 60 or more. Fuck that noise. 

Remove applicants names to the admissions office and eliminate the box Checked for race. 

If Harvard is 90% Asian in the future than so be it. It’s about time Asian Americans said enough is enough of this affirmative action bullshit. 

Harvard and other elite academic institutions shouldn’t only be concerned their catalogs look like Gap advertisements. 

And admitting students solely based on race does them no favors trust me. When they struggle in the difficult classes graded on curves it’s partly the Admissions fault. 

A Upenn law professor who’s been there 20 or so years got in hot water for saying no black has ever graduated in the top quarter of the class. He further expanded on that and said he couldn’t remember a black law student at penn graduating in the top 50% of the class. I’m sure you can imagine the backlash for just simply stating facts.

[RedZone]

Most go to college so they don't have to do the type jobs our President's create...that's the plan.

What a rude awakening. Nothing new really.

[DarterBlue]

1 hour ago, Belly Bob said:

The difference is that the well-paying jobs that hardworking but uneducated white Americans used to be able to do have largely disappeared and the ones that have remained have been denigrated. There is no shame in knowing how to fix a car or build a deck, but we've somehow managed to make jobs like that shameful. 

And of course the cost of houses and medical insurance has increased etc.

I think it's serious mistake to act as if American's problems are due to a sense of entitlement.

 

Bingo! To some degree I think he acts as if entitlement is the sole problem because it spares him having to rationalize some of the failings of neo-liberal ideology, which has greatly reduced the social safety net. But that is another story for another day ... 

[DarterBlue]

1 hour ago, concha said:

Science was in its infancy and, in fact, not really even in existence when many of the great universities were founded.  Today, the philosopher will be the exception and the physicist and engineer the majority in any nation that plans to lead.

Without a life philosophy, I would argue that you are not completely human, for to go about like a little worker bee or ant, is to make you just that: a living creature devoid of a purpose for living. 

Perhaps you fail to see this or perhaps it does not fit your ideology or is a reflection of the way you were raised. Not knowing much about your life's history, I am not in a position to judge. 

[concha]

1 hour ago, Belly Bob said:

 

The difference is that the well-paying jobs that hardworking but uneducated white Americans used to be able to do have largely disappeared and the ones that have remained have been denigrated. There is no shame in knowing how to fix a car or build a deck, but we've somehow managed to make jobs like that shameful. 

And of course the cost of houses and medical insurance has increased etc.

I think it's serious mistake to act as if American's problems are due to a sense of entitlement.

 

 

Manufacturing jobs are finally returning.

Jobs in areas like construction are now associated with illegal immigrants or their kids.  And wages were forced down to boot. Simple supply and demand.

[concha]

Just now, DarterBlue said:

Without a life philosophy, I would argue that you are not completely human, for to go about like a little worker bee or ant, is to make you just that: a living creature devoid of a purpose for living. 

Perhaps you fail to see this or perhaps it does not fit your ideology or is a reflection of the way you were raised. Not knowing much about your life's history, I am not in a position to judge. 

Philosophers are not producers.  I don't deny the value of philosophical thought or at least some exposure to it. But it doesn't put food on the table nor invent the next wonder widget.

[BigDrop]

2 hours ago, concha said:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2018/05/10/number-of-foreign-college-students-staying-and-working-in-u-s-after-graduation-surges/

What is true?

Your link shows 2008-2016 and does not include the Trump years.  There are huge issues with companies (especially tech) holding on to or attracting employees today from outside the U.S.

[NorCalRuss]

1 hour ago, Belly Bob said:

That's a great point. 

Our people with degrees in math and science don't want to teach K12. So our students suffer. 

I live in a university town, and it our schools are always rated among the very best in the state, but the dirty secret is that our kids do so well because they have professors for parents, not because their teachers are so awesome. 

We might be able to compete in math and science if we could get and keep talented math and science teachers in K12. 

Your professors in your university town must have 100s of kids each for this to be true. Impressive...

[DarterBlue]

5 minutes ago, concha said:

Philosophers are not producers.  I don't deny the value of philosophical thought or at least some exposure to it. But it doesn't put food on the table nor invent the next wonder widget.

 I though you were concerned about freedom. Pardon my misconception. 

I guess the sole purpose of life is: food, shelter and material possessions. Sounds pretty dour to me. But to each his own, I guess. 

[BigDrop]

10 minutes ago, concha said:

Manufacturing jobs are finally returning.

Jobs in areas like construction are now associated with illegal immigrants or their kids.  And wages were forced down to boot. Simple supply and demand.

They are not returning with the wages that people expect.  

[DarterBlue]

3 minutes ago, BigDrop said:

They are not returning with the wages that people expect.  

Or are worth.

A job that cannot sustain life's necessities is hardly something to be proud of. Part of the reason why wages are lower in several Asian countries is due to the tightness of the family unit and of smaller communities in general. As a result, many things people pay for in the USA are done on a barter basis, or in the case of relatives, for free or at a deep discount. As such, individuals can "afford" to work for less due to the reduced cost of living, as measured by conventional GDP. 

[concha]

40 minutes ago, DarterBlue said:

 I though you were concerned about freedom. Pardon my misconception. 

I guess the sole purpose of life is: food, shelter and material possessions. Sounds pretty dour to me. But to each his own, I guess. 

What the hell does what I said have to do with freedom?

And freedom has consequences.

You can be free to take loans to study medieval dance philosophy in the Congo Basin. But guess what? Come pay for college time, there are consequences.

[DarterBlue]

30 minutes ago, concha said:

What the hell does what I said have to do with freedom?

And freedom has consequences.

You can be free to take loans to study medieval dance philosophy in the Congo Basin. But guess what? Come pay for college time, there are consequences.

You referred to such in another of your posts in this thread. But it's okay. I know where you stand. And we shall forever agree to disagree. At least on my end. I am not sure about yours. 

An old man must get his rest. Good night, sir Concha. 

[concha]

Just now, DarterBlue said:

You referred to such in another of your posts in this thread. But it's okay. I know where you stand. And we shall forever agree to disagree. At least on my end. I am not sure about yours. 

An old man must get his rest. Good night, sir Concha. 

This getting old man is off to bed himself.

Sleep well.

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, NorCalRuss said:

Your professors in your university town must have 100s of kids each for this to be true. Impressive...

Why would you think that?