DBP66 Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 another flipper along with Gen. Flynn and George Papadoplis....that makes 3.... President Trump’s one-time campaign aide Richard Gates has told family and close friends in a letter sent this morning he plans to plead guilty Friday in the special counsel’s criminal case against him, setting up the potential for Gates to become the latest well-informed Trump insider to assist in the investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential contest, according to sources close to the matter. The potential for a guilty plea could dramatically change the dynamics in the investigation, just one day after special counsel Robert Mueller added a raft of new financial and tax charges to the criminal case against Gates and his longtime colleague, Paul Man Gates has for weeks been vacillating between fighting the charges and pleading guilty, and remained undecided through much of this week, according to the sources. Legal teams for President Trump and Manafort appeared to be unaware as late as Thursday about Gates’ intentions. In the letter obtained by ABC News, Gates writes to family and friends “despite my initial desire to vigorously defend myself, I have had a change of heart,” Gates explained. “The reality of how long this legal process will likely take, the cost, and the circus-like atmosphere of an anticipated trial are too much. I will better serve my family moving forward by exiting this process.” Gates, who has a young family, has endured immense pressure throughout, facing charges that carried the potential for more than a decade in jail, and risking the remainder of his savings. The deal hammered out between Mueller’s team and Gates’ legal team has the potential to spare him jail time. This was a “gut-wrenching decision” for the 45-year-old former campaign official, a source familiar with his thinking told ABC News. Gates also faced a significant financial burden, the source added. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZone Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 He better supply the goods to avoid prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBP66 Posted February 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 he has young kids....he better squeal like a pig for Muller...but the bigger prize in Manifort IMO...how long until he flips?...Bannon said that Paulie knows all the secrets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbcaptiron Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 DBP66 Just confirming, but these are the same two where one was fired by Trump before he took office, and the other (who was the lapdog of the one that was fired) left before he took office as well, right??? (One might think old Trumpy boy was just a little ahead of this game...wouldn't you think?) The indictments states that good ole Gates was trying to sell information on the Trump campaign to the Russians. The Russians (one oligarch at least) claim that he got suckered for 19 mil (maybe because they got fired and left and couldn't follow through?), and apparently these guy's got some offshore bank accounts which is how they got tripped up when they were found. all correct, no? You've been following and banging on this one for a year, so you might know a little more details than me, but that's the basics of what we know so far right? Now obviously if even half of this is true, these guys should be strung up. But SOMEHOW I really seem to be missing how this all somehow is an indictment of Trump or proves any 'Trump collusion' with the Russians... I get that your extremely happy with the fact that they were associated with Trump before they got fired and left, but maybe you could explain to me what I seem to be missing....as in what else do you know that leads you to believe that somehow this is all due to, or will somehow take down the president. Anything at all? or is it just wishful thinking? Just so you know, I'm really NOT trying to argue this one, and am actually serious...Just as federal indictments are... I'm also not interested in any 'bashing of the players' involved, and was much more interested in known facts. I know I can read the reams of news on it, but was more interested in why YOU are so confident in your condemnation of the POTUS and what that is based on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBP66 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 It's funny how Fox news and those on the right can seem to figure out Muller's game plan as it unfolds....do you think he's really concerned about the multiple scams Manifort and Gates have been pulling off for years OR rather is he MORE interested in trying to GAIN their knowledge of anything and everything Trump and Russia??....hummm...I'm going to go out on a limb and say Muller and company will gladly give up some jail time to Gates and Manifort if they tell him what they know about Russia & Trump...and apparently the 3 guys who flipped so far have info. Muller wants and will get...and use to get the bigger fish... Gates was around for much longer than Manifort...he was their throughout the transition and has a lot more inside info. than Manifort...he knows where the bodies are buried....let's see how "fake" this Russian story is now when he's trying to save his ass along with Flynn and Papadolpolis....I'm sure they'll be remembering a lot of things he forgot about.. That little press release that Donny personally crafted on the plane ride home from Germany about the "adoptions" meeting in Trump Tower with the group of Russian spies which was a LIE will come back to haunt him IMO....he was colluding with the Russians and continues to obstruct the case everytime he degrades the FBI-Atonnery General-CIA by calling it "fake news"....that train has left the station a long time ago...this "Russian thing" isn't B.S. despite what Donny says and most Americans know that and have know that for a long time...despite how much Fox news and tallk radio talk about Uranium One-Bengahzi-missing e-mails-dossier, exc.. 24-7... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
15yds4gibberish Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 14 hours ago, dbcaptiron said: Just so you know, I'm really NOT trying to argue this one, and am actually serious...Just as federal indictments are... I'm also not interested in any 'bashing of the players' involved, and was much more interested in known facts. I know I can read the reams of news on it, but was more interested in why YOU are so confident in your condemnation of the POTUS and what that is based on. I'm going to take you at your word about this, and share my thinking. You pride yourself as being an independent thinker, so I do not expect you to take my current thinking as gospel, nor would I want you to. You will need to do your own homework and come to your own conclusions. Like you, I also am not trying to argue. Please note: I know this was addressed to @DBP66, and I am butting in. But here goes anyway. I am confident laws have been broken, and there is a considerable scandal at the heart of this. What I'm less sure about is if there is a 'smoking gun' showing collaboration in the form of an explicit and formal agreement -- This does not bother me personally so much because I know that corrupt transactions are often tacit -- You are helping me. I'm helping you. It's good for both of us. No need to complicate it. ("Russia if you're listening, I hope you are able to find the 20,000 emails that are missing.") Also less sure about what Mueller will ultimately do with his findings. Much will depend, I suspect, on the political climate at the time. It's quite possible there could be a report to Congress that the public will never see. So we'll see. 14 hours ago, dbcaptiron said: DBP66 Just confirming, but these are the same two where one was fired by Trump before he took office, and the other (who was the lapdog of the one that was fired) left before he took office as well, right??? (One might think old Trumpy boy was just a little ahead of this game...wouldn't you think?) No. It's much more likely that Trump realized he had a huge liability on his hands with Manafort, so Manafort had to go. We now know a lot was happening in August of 2016. Probably the most critical thing was this: Starting in August, Donald Trump personally, as well as various high-ranking members of his team, were briefed on the Russian interference by US Intelligence and law enforcement officials. At the same time, there were numerous reports about Manafort's shady business dealings with Russia-aligned leaders in Ukraine, involving allegations of millions of dollars in cash payments and secret lobbying efforts in the United States. So we know that prior to Maniforts departure, Trump knew of Russian interference, and we know that Trump had a public image vulnerability in his admiration for Putin. This made his campaign manager a huge liability - So under all that pressure, Manafort 'resigned' (technically he wasn't fired). We also now know that Trump 100% knew that American intelligence agencies were looking into Russian interference, and yet they continued with the contacts and clandestine discussions and public policy promises right up to election day and intensified them during the transition. Not once, as far as we know, did anyone associated with the Trump campaign or Trump himself speak to anyone from the intelligence community and say, "hey you told us about that interference campaign. This one guy contacted us and we had a few conversations with him. Just wanted you to know..." Not once. Of course Jared, or Paul, or Don Jr. might have said "Hey, now that you mention it, we actually took this meeting in Trump Tower in June. And someone said it was the Russian government trying to give us dirt. We just wanted you to know." But none of that happened. To me this shows a consciousness of guilt, and a desire to collaborate ("If it's what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer") with the Russian operation, out of view of the US Government which was trying to prevent it. This is a considerable scandal all by itself, -- Even before we get into after the fact obstruction, calling the Russia Foreign Minister and sharing the most closely held US intelligence secrets, or the continued refusal to impose sanctions mandated overwhelmingly by Congress. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbcaptiron Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: Please note: I know this was addressed to @DBP66, and I am butting in. But here goes anyway.... 15yds4gibberish, First off, Tremendous post, and I hope people see it as I do, as a very WELL REASONED expression of opinion (which i would never consider it 'butting in' on a message board thread). I far prefer to hear well reasoned thought, even if from people i disagree with, than any tripe 'gibberish' (pun) put forth from any side including my own. #newfoundrespect. I'll try to frame my thoughts around some of the good points that you make: 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: I am confident laws have been broken, and there is a considerable scandal at the heart of this. As am I...agreed. 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: What I'm less sure about is if there is a 'smoking gun' showing collaboration in the form of an explicit and formal agreement -- This does not bother me personally so much because I know that corrupt transactions are often tacit -- You are helping me. I'm helping you. It's good for both of us. No need to complicate it. ("Russia if you're listening, I hope you are able to find the 20,000 emails that are missing.") Agree as well, Tacit works very well, check out Indicted U.S. Senator R. Menendez from NJ (my state) if you need a poster child... 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: No. It's much more likely that Trump realized he had a huge liability on his hands with Manafort, so Manafort had to go. Agree as well, but I would add that both a cohort and a straight up shooter would have the same issues here... 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: We now know a lot was happening in August of 2016. Probably the most critical thing was this: Starting in August, Donald Trump personally, as well as various high-ranking members of his team, were briefed on the Russian interference by US Intelligence and law enforcement officials. Yes, very important note. Let's keep it NOTED.... 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: At the same time, there were numerous reports about Manafort's shady business dealings with Russia-aligned leaders in Ukraine, involving allegations of millions of dollars in cash payments and secret lobbying efforts in the United States. So we know that prior to Maniforts departure, Trump knew of Russian interference, and we know that Trump had a public image vulnerability in his admiration for Putin. This made his campaign manager a huge liability - So under all that pressure, Manafort 'resigned' (technically he wasn't fired). News reports I've read had stated fired (did the fake news get me? lol). But to me that's moot... as that's all positioning, and does not really speak to anything. I also would not make any leap here to assume he was fired/quit for any 'public image' BS. If that were true, he probably never would have been hired...I'm thinking that it is something else (or there is more there). Fair enough? 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: We also now know that Trump 100% knew that American intelligence agencies were looking into Russian interference, and yet they continued with the contacts and clandestine discussions and public policy promises right up to election day and intensified them during the transition. Not once, as far as we know, did anyone associated with the Trump campaign or Trump himself speak to anyone from the intelligence community and say, "hey you told us about that interference campaign. This one guy contacted us and we had a few conversations with him. Just wanted you to know..." Not once. See now this is where you lose me.... It doesn't pass the sniff test or 'logic test'....more likely that any 'bad actor' would refrain from such activities, while someone acting in 'good faith' might not even see any issue...you can claim 'stupidity' here (would be the only way the logic would fail) and I could be wrong, but at this point, I'm not buying it. This is where the (underlined) THEY come into play...I think it EXTREMELY important to separate all the actors involved (can't lump together as 'they'). My 'quick take' on individual actors for reference as follows, Manafort: smart - but corrupt, Gates: smart/dumb? - but lapdog does what told, Kushner: dumb - in over his head, Trump: smart - corrupt/good actor?...... 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: Of course Jared, or Paul, or Don Jr. might have said "Hey, now that you mention it, we actually took this meeting in Trump Tower in June. And someone said it was the Russian government trying to give us dirt. We just wanted you to know." First off, In politics your dealing with 'bad actors' everyday...if you can't you're dead. What we know here is that in one meeting one 'Russian' came to them offering, and I don't believe he was representing 'RUSSIA' in any official capacity ......They heard what he had to say, and I know of no other 'follow up'. (if I saw follow thru, many things change in my mind) Now I'm kind of a skeptic and even prior to any of this, I have always assumed that both sides always try to 'set up' or 'catch' the other. In that view, I find this very suspicious....(did this 'Russian government' person even have any real dirt to give?) 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: But none of that happened. To me this shows a consciousness of guilt, and a desire to collaborate To me it shows someone who is running for the Presidency, who (even if he knew of the meeting) also knows that if he reports it to the FBI, then the word definitely gets out, and he loses the election.....a far stronger reasoning than protecting some 'collusion' which seems to have been actually declined.....JMO 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: This is a considerable scandal all by itself, welcome to politics... 8 hours ago, 15yds4gibberish said: -- Even before we get into after the fact obstruction, calling the Russia Foreign Minister and sharing the most closely held US intelligence secrets, or the continued refusal to impose sanctions mandated overwhelmingly by Congress. All separate topics, and when discussing them, I hope people can reason their thoughts and express them as well as you have with this one... It certainly leads to MUCH better conversations about them Thanks again for your thoughts 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbcaptiron Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 17 hours ago, DBP66 said: It's funny how Fox news and those on the right can seem to figure out Muller's game plan as it unfolds....do you think he's really concerned about the multiple scams Manifort and Gates have been pulling off for years OR rather is he MORE interested in trying to GAIN their knowledge of anything and everything Trump and Russia??....hummm...I'm going to go out on a limb and say Muller and company will gladly give up some jail time to Gates and Manifort if they tell him what they know about Russia & Trump...and apparently the 3 guys who flipped so far have info. Muller wants and will get...and use to get the bigger fish... Gates was around for much longer than Manifort...he was their throughout the transition and has a lot more inside info. than Manifort...he knows where the bodies are buried....let's see how "fake" this Russian story is now when he's trying to save his ass along with Flynn and Papadolpolis....I'm sure they'll be remembering a lot of things he forgot about.. That little press release that Donny personally crafted on the plane ride home from Germany about the "adoptions" meeting in Trump Tower with the group of Russian spies which was a LIE will come back to haunt him IMO....he was colluding with the Russians and continues to obstruct the case everytime he degrades the FBI-Atonnery General-CIA by calling it "fake news"....that train has left the station a long time ago...this "Russian thing" isn't B.S. despite what Donny says and most Americans know that and have know that for a long time...despite how much Fox news and tallk radio talk about Uranium One-Bengahzi-missing e-mails-dossier, exc.. 24-7... Your drum banging is worse than when my sister (who apparently had it done to her) intentionally bought one of those cheap plastic electronic drum sets for my (at the time) 4 year old for Christmas... and appreciated just as much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thc6795 Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 41 minutes ago, dbcaptiron said: Your drum banging is worse than when my sister (who apparently had it done to her) intentionally bought one of those cheap plastic electronic drum sets for my (at the time) 4 year old for Christmas... and appreciated just as much... He is a pathetic chump. He s the bitch that was bullied in high-school who found his balls behind a keyboard. Face to face he wd whimper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBP66 Posted February 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 5 hours ago, thc6795 said: He is a pathetic chump. He s the bitch that was bullied in high-school who found his balls behind a keyboard. Face to face he wd whimper. I'd smack the living shit out of you Tex if I ever saw you.....you're the computer key tough guy here...I'm just tough.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBP66 Posted February 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 6 hours ago, dbcaptiron said: Your drum banging is worse than when my sister (who apparently had it done to her) intentionally bought one of those cheap plastic electronic drum sets for my (at the time) 4 year old for Christmas... and appreciated just as much... and you're denials and refusal to see the obvious reminds me of the picture of the 3 monkeys..... One covering his eyes...the other his mouth and the third his ears...just like most Trumpers......and my numbers were wrong it's 5 guilty pleads and 22 indictments....but don't worry....the Russian story is still just "fake news"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbcaptiron Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, DBP66 said: and you're denials and refusal to see the obvious reminds me of the picture of the 3 monkeys..... One covering his eyes...the other his mouth and the third his ears...just like most Trumpers......and my numbers were wrong it's 5 guilty pleads and 22 indictments....but don't worry....the Russian story is still just "fake news"... My eyes are not closed, but I can only see what is in front of me. Where as you seem to have some magic crystal ball ...good for you...I just hope your not relying on one that is stamped with CNN on the bottom.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBP66 Posted February 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 ...^ cute meme...CNN huh?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
15yds4gibberish Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 16 hours ago, dbcaptiron said: 15yds4gibberish, First off, Tremendous post, and I hope people see it as I do, as a very WELL REASONED expression of opinion (which i would never consider it 'butting in' on a message board thread). I far prefer to hear well reasoned thought, even if from people i disagree with, than any tripe 'gibberish' (pun) put forth from any side including my own. #newfoundrespect. I'll try to frame my thoughts around some of the good points that you make: As am I...agreed. Agree as well, Tacit works very well, check out Indicted U.S. Senator R. Menendez from NJ (my state) if you need a poster child... Agree as well, but I would add that both a cohort and a straight up shooter would have the same issues here... Yes, very important note. Let's keep it NOTED.... News reports I've read had stated fired (did the fake news get me? lol). But to me that's moot... as that's all positioning, and does not really speak to anything. I also would not make any leap here to assume he was fired/quit for any 'public image' BS. If that were true, he probably never would have been hired...I'm thinking that it is something else (or there is more there). Fair enough? See now this is where you lose me.... It doesn't pass the sniff test or 'logic test'....more likely that any 'bad actor' would refrain from such activities, while someone acting in 'good faith' might not even see any issue...you can claim 'stupidity' here (would be the only way the logic would fail) and I could be wrong, but at this point, I'm not buying it. This is where the (underlined) THEY come into play...I think it EXTREMELY important to separate all the actors involved (can't lump together as 'they'). My 'quick take' on individual actors for reference as follows, Manafort: smart - but corrupt, Gates: smart/dumb? - but lapdog does what told, Kushner: dumb - in over his head, Trump: smart - corrupt/good actor?...... First off, In politics your dealing with 'bad actors' everyday...if you can't you're dead. What we know here is that in one meeting one 'Russian' came to them offering, and I don't believe he was representing 'RUSSIA' in any official capacity ......They heard what he had to say, and I know of no other 'follow up'. (if I saw follow thru, many things change in my mind) Now I'm kind of a skeptic and even prior to any of this, I have always assumed that both sides always try to 'set up' or 'catch' the other. In that view, I find this very suspicious....(did this 'Russian government' person even have any real dirt to give?) To me it shows someone who is running for the Presidency, who (even if he knew of the meeting) also knows that if he reports it to the FBI, then the word definitely gets out, and he loses the election.....a far stronger reasoning than protecting some 'collusion' which seems to have been actually declined.....JMO welcome to politics... All separate topics, and when discussing them, I hope people can reason their thoughts and express them as well as you have with this one... It certainly leads to MUCH better conversations about them Thanks again for your thoughts @dbcaptiron Well done and much appreciated. More points of agreement than I anticipated, couple of honest differences in perspective. It appears we genuinely share some of the same open questions, and we both have a willingness to re-evaluate as more information becomes available (eg the Schiff memo dropped yesterday between the time of our two posts -- Little surprised there isn't a thread on it already). Let's keep talking. Now for a little snark as blog life is hardly worth living without it -- I think it's now safe to say the Mueller investigation isn't going to be wrapped up by Christmas 2017... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbcaptiron Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 You can’t ever ignore the basic facts. And it’s always hard trying to put them together in a way that makes the most sense. But as the majority of your post was factual towards events, what’s not to agree to? If everyone framed their opinion’s based in reality (and not on who they like) it’s a hell of a lot easier to discuss, and those doing so are going to find themselves a whole lot closer to the truth. Great convo and as more info gets revealed it will be a pleasure to discuss with someone who prefers truth over agendas Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thc6795 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 13 hours ago, DBP66 said: I'd smack the living shit out of you Tex if I ever saw you.....you're the computer key tough guy here...I'm just tough.... You can't smack your own Dick without help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat_Scratch Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 @ DBcap and Gibberish... You both are worthy of reading. Thanks for the mature debate... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORabidOne Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 On 2/23/2018 at 10:55 AM, DBP66 said: another flipper along with Gen. Flynn and George Papadoplis....that makes 3.... President Trump’s one-time campaign aide Richard Gates has told family and close friends in a letter sent this morning he plans to plead guilty Friday in the special counsel’s criminal case against him, setting up the potential for Gates to become the latest well-informed Trump insider to assist in the investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential contest, according to sources close to the matter. The potential for a guilty plea could dramatically change the dynamics in the investigation, just one day after special counsel Robert Mueller added a raft of new financial and tax charges to the criminal case against Gates and his longtime colleague, Paul Man Gates has for weeks been vacillating between fighting the charges and pleading guilty, and remained undecided through much of this week, according to the sources. Legal teams for President Trump and Manafort appeared to be unaware as late as Thursday about Gates’ intentions. In the letter obtained by ABC News, Gates writes to family and friends “despite my initial desire to vigorously defend myself, I have had a change of heart,” Gates explained. “The reality of how long this legal process will likely take, the cost, and the circus-like atmosphere of an anticipated trial are too much. I will better serve my family moving forward by exiting this process.” Gates, who has a young family, has endured immense pressure throughout, facing charges that carried the potential for more than a decade in jail, and risking the remainder of his savings. The deal hammered out between Mueller’s team and Gates’ legal team has the potential to spare him jail time. This was a “gut-wrenching decision” for the 45-year-old former campaign official, a source familiar with his thinking told ABC News. Gates also faced a significant financial burden, the source added. The only meddling was with HILLARY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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