DevilDog Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 12 minutes ago, Horsefly said: That’s the problem, they aren’t imposing anything. People are still free to render respect to the flag free from extraneous noises or movements. A part of recognizing the flag is remembering those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice in protecting our freedoms and way of life. That is not entertainment that is honoring their commitment and sacrifice. When your son goes on active duty (if he’s still choosing to do do) and serves a tour or two in Afghanistan or some other hot spot, let’s come back and revisit this and see if you still see the anthem as entertainment. Just sayin’ 1st of all the guy is an idiot because the people that agree with him claim they no longer watch the NFL. Now I'm pissed I will from now on not pay attention to any white dude with a sign. If they hold one up in the stands including the WWE Or to acknowledge their kid at a HS game my TV is instantly shut off. I don't even care if it is a Texas is Back sign. 🤣 I'm gonna go home and burn every sign in my garage and in my neighborhood. I will not tolerate this. That's sounds about as silly as them with Nike. Which has exploded. 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, Horsefly said: That’s the problem, they aren’t imposing anything. People are still free to render respect to the flag free from extraneous noises or movements. That’s exactly right, protests usually impede others from doing something, so by definition the kneeling protests are extremely mild. A part of recognizing the flag is remembering those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice in protecting our freedoms and way of life. That is not entertainment that is honoring their commitment and sacrifice. When your son goes on active duty (if he’s still choosing to do do) and serves a tour or two in Afghanistan or some other hot spot, let’s come back and revisit this and see if you still see the anthem as entertainment. Just sayin’ If recognizing the flag was not part of the 'entertainment spectacle', it would not be included at most entertainment events.... What you feel personally or in your own living room is very true, but scheduled group honorings are a spectacle...done for the NFL's use of patriotism, as a way of bonding fans, and increasing their own importance and meaning.... And YES, to draw attention to those in a group gathering who have more selfish reasons than to participate in your elegantly worded honoring, is most definitely an imposition on the groups actually trying to honor something... and certainly takes away from it... Social thievery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 18 minutes ago, DevilDog said: 1st of all the guy is an idiot because the people that agree with him claim they no longer watch the NFL. Now I'm pissed I will from now on not pay attention to any white dude with a sign. If they hold one up in the stands including the WWE Or to acknowledge their kid at a HS game my TV is instantly shut off. I don't even care if it is a Texas is Back sign. 🤣 I'm gonna go home and burn every sign in my garage and in my neighborhood. I will not tolerate this. That's sounds about as silly as them with Nike. Which has exploded. 🤣 So when are you going to explain to everyone how the abortion protester should be thrown in jail (or at the very least tossed out of the stadium)....yet 'your guys' shouldn't be...... everyone is still waiting.....tap tap tap... unless of course you think EVERYONE should bring a sign they like, and dance around on the field while the anthem plays..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDog Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, Troll said: If recognizing the flag was not part of the 'entertainment spectacle', it would not be included at most entertainment events.... What you feel personally or in your own living room is very true, but scheduled group honorings are a spectacle...done for the NFL's use of patriotism, as a way of bonding fans, and increasing their own importance and meaning.... And YES, to draw attention to those in a group gathering who have more selfish reasons than to participate in your elegantly worded honoring, is most definitely an imposition on the groups actually trying to honor something... and certainly takes away from it... Social thievery... Much less offensive than Social Darwinism. Ask old Herbert Spencer about it. But that's for another class on revisionism 101. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDog Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Troll said: So when are you going to explain to everyone how the abortion protester should be thrown in jail (or at the very least tossed out of the stadium)....yet 'your guys' shouldn't be...... everyone is still waiting.....tap tap tap... unless of course you think EVERYONE should bring a sign they like, and dance around on the field while the anthem plays..... I now hate signs it doesn't have to make sense remember. Stop holding me to a standard not applied to others with the same knuckleheaded precepts. I'm admitting it's stupid yet you're still confounded. You get another WTF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 Just now, DevilDog said: Much less offensive than Social Darwinism. But that's for another class on revisionism 101. 😁 100% agree.... and I don't think you can get to revisionism until you are a sophomore at least (201 LOL) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, Troll said: If recognizing the flag was not part of the 'entertainment spectacle', it would not be included at most entertainment events.... What you feel personally or in your own living room is very true, but scheduled group honorings are a spectacle...done for the NFL's use of patriotism, as a way of bonding fans, and increasing their own importance and meaning.... And YES, to draw attention to those in a group gathering who have more selfish reasons than to participate in your elegantly worded honoring, is most definitely an imposition on the groups actually trying to honor something... and certainly takes away from it... Social thievery... No it’s more like personal sensitivity. A segment of an event to memorialize and honor anyone is not entertainment, and to say otherwise is VERY DISRESPECTFUL. Bottom line use a different word. the reality is no one’s right to engage in that activity was threatened or jeopardized. No more than than those walking the corridors using the bathroom or getting snacks at the concessions. It’s odd to me we would argue that those on the field pay tribute (to do otherwise is disrespectful in their eyes) but be blind to those pursuing capitalism (concessionaires) to be a convenient excuse to not participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, DevilDog said: I now hate signs it doesn't have to make sense remember. Stop holding me to a standard not applied to others with the same knuckleheaded precepts. I'm admitting it's stupid yet you're still confounded. You get another WTF. you are right.... WTF? 🤣 Last post should not have been addressed to 'you'..... probably just the point in the thread, I thought worth mentioning I guess... 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, Sportsnut said: How does knelling impose anything on the fans? Answer the question. already did....see above and read first.... as for answering questions....this one shot at DD by mistake is still open.... why don't you try it on for size and....answer the question... 18 minutes ago, Troll said: So when are you going to explain to everyone how the abortion protester should be thrown in jail (or at the very least tossed out of the stadium)....yet 'your guys' shouldn't be...... everyone is still waiting.....tap tap tap... unless of course you think EVERYONE should bring a sign they like, and dance around on the field while the anthem plays..... so what's your answer? How about you Horse....you got one either? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, Horsefly said: No it’s more like personal sensitivity. A segment of an event to memorialize anyone is not entertainment, and to say otherwise is disingenuous. the reality is no one’s right to engage in that activity was threatened or jeopardized. No more than than those walking the corridors using the bathroom or getting snacks at the concessions. It’s odd to me we would argue that those on the field pay tribute (to do otherwise is disrespectful in their eyes) but be blind to those pursuing capitalism (concessionaires) to be a convenient excuse to not participate. you cannot apply 'your' personal sensitivity to others in a social setting, and then make your own determination of what is acceptable... Would it be perfectly acceptable for the wait staff to wear 'white hoods' at a BLM reception in protest of what they feel is not addressing their own 'wait staff' needs.... Heck it's just a silent protest in a public space, that you do not have to even look at..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, Troll said: already did....see above and read first.... as for answering questions....this one shot at DD by mistake is still open.... why don't you try it on for size and....answer the question... so what's your answer? How about you Horse....you got one either? Where did I say the protestor should be put in jail or thrown out? Escorted back to their seat and if they refuse, then they should be removed. Now let’s break that down. Why escort them to a seat? It’s a space they paid for for that night and they are restricted from walking in an area that is off limits to public access. Are the athlete protesters in violation of personal space let’s say walking in the stands? No they are not. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, Troll said: you cannot apply 'your' personal sensitivity to others in a social setting, and then make your own determination of what is acceptable... Would it be perfectly acceptable for the wait staff to wear 'white hoods' at a BLM reception in protest of what they feel is not addressing their own 'wait staff' needs.... Heck it's just a silent protest in a public space, that you do not have to even look at..... Interesting, you do just that with your argument. Aaah. So now you want to make a false equivalence to specific articles of clothing that are associated and easily identifiable with a particular group and racial movement(white hoods and kkk). Is that what the protesters did or were they in uniform like the rest of their teammates? If one were not aware of what the protesters were kneeling about, would one readily and easily know what it was about? Not exactly the same thing if I walked in a room and saw several people donning white hoodies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sportsnut said: You answered not my inquiry.<<< yes I have, try comprehension What does a quiet, knelling man have to do with the entertainment value a fans gets? How does his actions detract from the value of his or her evening of entertainment at a football game they purchased a ticket for? This football game had not started so their ""Value"" was not compromised due to his actions.<<<this is just dummbass….NFL disagrees and even promotes fan zones and such much prior to the START you try to call kickoff, as part of the entertainment value you purchase with your spent money. Answer the question. II'll 'entertain' it once more in case it helps.....When they become aware of others in their gathering not agreeing with their own traditions and protesting them, they will naturally take offense as it is most definitely an attack on their own tradition. that they believe they should respect. Such attacks tend to ruin the entertainment value they paid for. And being able to honor their tradition, has also traditionally been part of this entertainment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, Horsefly said: Interesting, you do just that with your argument. Aaah. So now you want to make a false equivalence to specific articles of clothing that are associated and easily identifiable with a particular group and racial movement(white hoods and kkk). Is that what the protesters did or were they in uniform like the rest of their teammates? If one were not aware of what the protesters were kneeling about, would one readily and easily know what it was about? Not exactly the same thing if I walked in a room and saw several people donning white hoodies. yes of course I just did that....to show how silly the argument is... wait staff should have just as much right to protest a BLM group gathering and show disagreement with their beliefs....and hoods are a silent non-intrusive protest.... you call it a false equivalency....state your case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, Troll said: II'll 'entertain' it once more in case it helps.....When they become aware of others in their gathering not agreeing with their own traditions and protesting them, they will naturally take offense as it is most definitely an attack on their own tradition. that they believe they should respect. Interesting, isnt this what you just told me? “you cannot apply 'your' personal sensitivity to others in a social setting, and then make your own determination of what is acceptable...” Such attacks tend to ruin the entertainment value they paid for. And being able to honor their tradition, has also traditionally been part of this entertainment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 18 minutes ago, Horsefly said: Where did I say the protestor should be put in jail or thrown out? Escorted back to their seat and if they refuse, then they should be removed. Now let’s break that down. Why escort them to a seat? It’s a space they paid for for that night and they are restricted from walking in an area that is off limits to public access. Are the athlete protesters in violation of personal space let’s say walking in the stands? No they are not. Just a thought. reasonable... but NFL prohibits signs....to prevent such fan expression of beliefs... while players are given a spotlight.... how about if the guy dresses as a Nazi in the stands and does Hitler salutes all game.....acceptable or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 8 minutes ago, Troll said: yes of course I just did that....to show how silly the argument is... wait staff should have just as much right to protest a BLM group gathering and show disagreement with their beliefs....and hoods are a silent non-intrusive protest.... you call it a false equivalency....state your case... lol. I just did, or did you miss the social and historical relevance I made to hoodies? If we see one we all know what it means as you just illustrated by using it as an example without referencing kkk specifically. The other difference is the protesting wait staff is delaying or denying the actual service and delivery of my food. It’s a tangible, material impact. once again, players kneeling, not showing up at all during pregame or being absent is not impacting my ability to listen to the anthem nor pay respect to the flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Horsefly said: Interesting, isnt this what you just told me? “you cannot apply 'your' personal sensitivity to others in a social setting, and then make your own determination of what is acceptable...” It is not 'ME' who is determining what is acceptable.... that determination comes from the owners of any event who sell the tickets... Flag Honoring, traditionally, has long been included as part of any NFL event you purchase a ticket for, and that is not 'applying' but mere stating of case. If they decide to not include it, then the issue is surely resolved. But to allow it, and then allow protests against what most fans would rather not have injected into their football...….is ….just ….plain …...ridiculous..... Like the abortion guy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, Troll said: It is not 'ME' who is determining what is acceptable.... that determination comes from the owners of any event who sell the tickets... Flag Honoring, traditionally, has long been included as part of any NFL event you purchase a ticket for, and that is not 'applying' but mere stating of case. If they decide to not include it, then the issue is surely resolved. But to allow it, and then allow protests against what most fans would rather not have injected into their football...….is ….just ….plain …...ridiculous..... Like the abortion guy.... Correct, but yet some owners have said they don’t have a problem with the players kneeling. However, some are not satisfied with that as a response. Some even in high places with seemingly more important things on their plate to worry about than social norms during the pregame of NFL games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, Horsefly said: lol. I just did, or did you miss the social and historical relevance I made to hoodies?<<<irrelevant, that's the point of the protest...to make you uncomfortable... If we see one we all know what it means as you just illustrated by using it as an example without referencing kkk specifically. <<<and when we see a kneel we all know what it means too right? The other difference is the protesting wait staff is delaying or denying the actual service and delivery of my food. It’s a tangible, material impact. <<<Nice try but no tangible or material impact at all...they just wearing the swag as the serve... once again, players kneeling, not showing up at all during pregame or being absent is not impacting my ability to listen to the anthem nor pay respect to the flag. <<<just to clarify, got no issue AT ALL with those who wish not to participate in any tradition, and I would support Kap or any others right to stay in the locker room or such (even think NFL would be overstepping to ask them otherwise). but yes taking center stage in the middle of a tradition and waving a big FU to everyone and their tradition, does kind of spoil an honoring.... and you know the Hood posit is the very same...... even if taken to the extreme.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDog Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 What if that would have been an African American doing that during the Anthem with a sign supporting Democrats and Pro Choice? Would it get the same comparative response or would it be a while new level of angst? Imagine the responses on this board toward him. Yet I have not injected any vitriol toward this event. I think if we're honest we all know the answer. He should leave this Country etc etc ad nauseum. Cooterville would all be having elevated swine eating Hypertension activity the day after. Imagine what The President would say. I wonder if this guy is the Son of a Bitch. Things that make the old Double D say hhhmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, Troll said: and you know the Hood posit is the very same...... even if taken to the extreme.... No, the hood reference is not the same regardless of how many times you repeat it. I know what protests are intended to do. Kneeling silently is the most passive one to make, but appears to be the most intrusive gesture according to you and others. Smh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 8 minutes ago, Horsefly said: Correct, but yet some owners have said they don’t have a problem with the players kneeling. However, some are not satisfied with that as a response. Some even in high places with much more important things on their plate to worry about. agreed... My personal take is really more a time/place thing...got no issue with what they have to say... just know when to say it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 Just now, Horsefly said: No, the hood reference is not the same regardless of how many times you repeat it. <<<sure it is, we can discuss at length if you prefer. I know what protests are intended to do. Kneeling silently is the most passive aggressive one to make, but appears to be the most intrusive gesture according to you and others. don't project....it's not very becoming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, DevilDog said: What if that would have been an African American doing that during the Anthem with a sign supporting Democrats and Pro Choice?Would it get the same comparative response or would it be a while new level of angst? I think if we're honest we all know the answer. Cooterville would all be having elevated swine eating Hypertension activity the day after. Imagine what The President would say. I wonder if this guy is the Son of a Bitch. Things that make the old Double D say hhhmmmmm. Of course it would bring out the wrath. I’m enjoying the discussion on how kneeling silently is so disruptive to ones sensibilities. Fragility comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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