Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 25 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: What? I see the movement as 'anti-globalist' not 'nationalist'... 'nationalist' sounds like something people would try to even tie to like a nazi germany or something....🤔 seen these yellow vests in several other countries, so how does that 'solidarity' square with your 'nationalism???. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Troll said: I see the movement as 'anti-globalist' not 'nationalist'... 'nationalist' sounds like something people would try to even tie to like a nazi germany or something....🤔 seen these yellow vests in several other countries, so how does that 'solidarity' square with your 'nationalism???. Labels are nuts nowadays. Antiglobalists are on the left and the right. Trump is the closest thing to antiglobalist in mainstream politics. Leftists are both globalists and antiglobalists - so are conservatives. And the French protesters appear to be politically diverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Bormio said: Labels are nuts nowadays. Antiglobalists are on the left and the right. Trump is the closest thing to antiglobalist in mainstream politics. Leftists are both globalists and antiglobalists - so are conservatives. And the French protesters appear to be politically diverse. twisted 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 36 minutes ago, HSFBfan said: Collectively the USA and its allies. When you devastate a country like they did to Germany it allowed someone like Hitler to come up with a message that would resonate with the German people. That's good. I didn't expect that from you. I usually hear that America caused WII only from my hippie liberal friends. I may have to update my psychological profile on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: That's good. I didn't expect that from you. I usually hear that America caused WII only from my hippie liberal friends. I may have to update my psychological profile on you. Cant blame just the USA for the treaty. Has to be collective in terms of all the allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 This is interesting......el chap trial could lead back to fast and furious https://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny-news-prosecutors-want-ban-fast-and-furious-el-chapo-trial-20181210-story.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 41 minutes ago, Bormio said: Wars are limited now because we are afraid of total war. But the weapons for WW2 on steroids exist. No, wars are limited now for political and social reasons. Otherwise, we'd have seen wars on a limited scale between European nations, which, as someone above stated, have been constant for about 2,000 years, until about 70 years ago. Europeans don't fight each other anymore because of political and social reasons, not because of fear of "total war" -- whatever that phrase is supposed to mean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Allons y enfants de la Patrie .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, HSFBfan said: Read man. Read the articles and the attitude of the leaders. No but if this country wants to keep going down the path of illegals taxes I'll consider moving to where my grandfather lived....bari Italy I respect your opinions, but reading and living are not the same. I am Croatian and was born in Communist Yugoslavia. Believe me, Europe is better off without Communism and nationalism. Both are bad. Communism sucks for obvious reasons, but nationalism in Europe has resulted in two great wars as these countries do not generally get along. I do agree with you that Europe has problems with immigration that they have to deal with. But their biggest problem right now is economic, especially with rising unemployment and inflation. In my opinion it's best if Europe becomes moderate. Leaning a little to the left or right is OK, but going too far either way could cause future problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Belly Bob said: No, wars are limited now for political and social reasons. Otherwise, we'd have seen wars on a limited scale between European nations, which, as someone above stated, have been constant for about 2,000 years, until about 70 years ago. Europeans don't fight each other anymore because of political and social reasons, not because of fear of "total war" -- whatever that phrase is supposed to mean. Europe is coming unglued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 29 minutes ago, Troll said: I see the movement as 'anti-globalist' not 'nationalist'... 'nationalist' sounds like something people would try to even tie to like a nazi germany or something....🤔 seen these yellow vests in several other countries, so how does that 'solidarity' square with your 'nationalism???. Are you suggesting a third category between anti-globalist and nationalist? If so, then maybe we agree. If not, then I don't know how you're defining these terms, in which case I don't whether we agree or disagree. I, myself, don't know anything about yellow vests. I don't follow politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, ohio said: I respect your opinions, but reading and living are not the same. I am Croatian and was born in Communist Yugoslavia. Believe me, Europe is better off without Communism and nationalism. Both are bad. Communism sucks for obvious reasons, but nationalism in Europe has resulted in two great wars as these countries do not generally get along. I do agree with you that Europe has problems with immigration that they have to deal with. But their biggest problem right now is economic, especially with rising unemployment and inflation. In my opinion it's best if Europe becomes moderate. Leaning a little to the left or right is OK, but going too far either way could cause future problems. And the leaders are not doing with the economic situation. Look at the idiot in Chicago who is going down the same path as Macron in terms of taxes. They just dont get it. All nationalism is is the love of ones countries and to address the issues at and plaguing that nation. Countries need some nationalism. It would help fix a lot of things. I'd love to bring back our founding fathers and hear their opinion on the bullshit of this country today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: Are you suggesting a third category between anti-globalist and nationalist? If so, then maybe we agree. If not, then I don't know how you're defining these terms, in which case I don't whether we agree or disagree. I, myself, don't know anything about yellow vests. I don't follow politics. You have to see what's going on in France Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, ohio said: I respect your opinions, but reading and living are not the same. I am Croatian and was born in Communist Yugoslavia. Believe me, Europe is better off without Communism and nationalism. Both are bad. Communism sucks for obvious reasons, but nationalism in Europe has resulted in two great wars as these countries do not generally get along. I do agree with you that Europe has problems with immigration that they have to deal with. But their biggest problem right now is economic, especially with rising unemployment and inflation. In my opinion it's best if Europe becomes moderate. Leaning a little to the left or right is OK, but going too far either way could cause future problems. Maybe that's a move toward a third category, a tertium quid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: Are you suggesting a third category between anti-globalist and nationalist? If so, then maybe we agree. If not, then I don't know how you're defining these terms, in which case I don't whether we agree or disagree. I, myself, don't know anything about yellow vests. I don't follow politics. I guess so... This movement is a bit twisted.... The old definitions don't fit exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Troll said: I guess so... This movement is a bit twisted.... The old definitions don't fit exactly. Well, this particular political movement aside, I suspect that any long-term political solutions to the current problems aren't going to be found in old political ideas like nationalism or Communism, but in something new. Maybe that's what @ohio was suggesting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, ohio said: I respect your opinions, but reading and living are not the same. I am Croatian and was born in Communist Yugoslavia. Believe me, Europe is better off without Communism and nationalism. Both are bad. Communism sucks for obvious reasons, but nationalism in Europe has resulted in two great wars as these countries do not generally get along. I do agree with you that Europe has problems with immigration that they have to deal with. But their biggest problem right now is economic, especially with rising unemployment and inflation. In my opinion it's best if Europe becomes moderate. Leaning a little to the left or right is OK, but going too far either way could cause future problems. Funny when Bellybob said no wars in Europe, my first thought was I guess he does not consider Ukraine Bosnia or Georgia as European... What about Crimea.....or notrthern Caucus(only a stretch geographically and not ethnically... list of wars has not stopped at any point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, HSFBfan said: And the leaders are not doing with the economic situation. Look at the idiot in Chicago who is going down the same path as Macron in terms of taxes. They just dont get it. All nationalism is is the love of ones countries and to address the issues at and plaguing that nation. Countries need some nationalism. It would help fix a lot of things. I'd love to bring back our founding fathers and hear their opinion on the bullshit of this country today How would you feel if every state in the US becomes its own nation? For instance, you would need a passport and a Visa to cross state...um...national lines. Now you are right about going too far with globalism, especially with open borders. Just as the US is stronger as a united nation, Europe will be stronger if united to a certain degree. But you are right there are many issues to be worked out and Germany and France, to some degree, have become bullies there. One of the major reasons for Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, Troll said: Funny when Bellybob said no wars in Europe, my first thought was I guess he does not consider Ukraine Bosnia or Georgia as European... What about Crimea.....or notrthern Caucus(only a stretch geographically and not ethnically... list of wars has not stopped at any point.... Isnt there something going on in Crimea now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 People in Europe increasingly see the EU as the cause of their economic misery. Countries no longer have their own currency, have little control over their fiscal and no control over monetary policy. Governments cannot stimulate their economies. All is now run by Berlin, not Brussels. And an explosion is building. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, Belly Bob said: Well, this particular political movement aside, I suspect that any long-term political solutions to the current problems aren't going to be found in old political ideas like nationalism or Communism, but in something new. Maybe that's what @ohio was suggesting. that's kind of the problem as I see it too. Just an 'anti' protest.... They are not 'promoting' anything, other that shipping migrants back home, and rejection of all the recent globalistic policies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, ohio said: How would you feel if every state in the US becomes its own nation? For instance, you would need a passport and a Visa to cross state...um...national lines. Now you are right about going too far with globalism, especially with open borders. Just as the US is stronger as a united nation, Europe will be stronger if united to a certain degree. But you are right there are many issues to be worked out and Germany and France, to some degree, have become bullies there. One of the major reasons for Brexit. Oh u mean how like this country was ser up....13 individual colonies who took care of themselves. Had their own currency their own government and it kept the central government limited. I'd absolutely love to go back to that. And may is now fucking up Brexit. Won't even give the voters what they want and what they voted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, HSFBfan said: Well they were on a nationalist path where they wanted to take care of their country. No. The Nazi party was not about nationalism. It was about world domination. Hitler's regime wanted to take over Europe, then Asian, and finally the Americas. If he was successful, you and I would never have been born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, ohio said: How would you feel if every state in the US becomes its own nation? For instance, you would need a passport and a Visa to cross state...um...national lines. Now you are right about going too far with globalism, especially with open borders. Just as the US is stronger as a united nation, Europe will be stronger if united to a certain degree. But you are right there are many issues to be worked out and Germany and France, to some degree, have become bullies there. One of the major reasons for Brexit. Europe has no history of being united or positive reason to become so. Our history is very different- and we almost did not make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, Bormio said: Europe has no history of being united or positive reason to become so. Our history is very different- and we almost did not make it. That's the major reason for all the wars that they have had throughout history. Peace has allowed Europe to prosper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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