Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Belly Bob said: I didn't claim that "country governments act only in their own best interest." I claimed that @Bormio's idea that we return to that "time-honored" policy is a mistake. Human beings, and politicians in particular, have a tendency to act for their own best interests. That's not a special problem that would count against any form of world government. your point as applied to globalization is in fact worse (than as you apply it to 'nationalism')....smaller local govs more easily corrected when corrupt..etc.. just a matter of fact to include in your point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, Troll said: your point as applied to globalization is in fact worse (than as you apply it to 'nationalism')....smaller local govs more easily corrected when corrupt..etc.. just a matter of fact to include in your point... Oh, sure. The history of Central and South America shows us just how easy it is to "correct" corruption in states smaller than the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Italy is going to do what is best for Italy, Germany for Germany, Britain for Britain etc. Their governments are elected by their people, and ultimately respond to them - not other European citizens. If the EU gets in the way - it will collapse. Already there is significant sentiment in many countries - not just Britain - to leave. That is why the EU is making it so hard for Britain to leave - if people saw it was easy, the EU would be on the ash heap of history. Nationalism is not going away anytime soon - the world has to be determined to restrain nations who become bad actors via the application of wielded power - political, economic and military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: After glancing at the list for 10 seconds, these look like mostly civil wars. I hope we're still talking about the value of nationalism and that we haven't changed the subject. I hope we are still talking about nationalism.... well that and how 'peaceful' Europe has been without all that 'nationalism' shenanighans…. Because civil war is kind of the opposite of nationalism......no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: Oh, sure. The history of Central and South America shows us just how easy it is to "correct" corruption in states smaller than the US. red herring alert! false pretense. define hard vs harder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, Troll said: I hope we are still talking about nationalism.... well that and how 'peaceful' Europe has been without all that 'nationalism' shenanighans…. Because civil war is kind of the opposite of nationalism......no? No, because often the cause of civil war is the desire for national independence. And I'd like you to be clear: do you really believe that Europe, not the set of countries that happen to reside in the continent of Europe, but the set of countries that share the political and cultural values that often fall under the heading of "Western values" hasn't been more peaceful in the last 70 years than in the previous 2,000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, Troll said: red herring alert! false pretense. define hard vs harder If you've got the definition of the one, then you've got the definition of the other. You used "easier". Do you not know what it means? Where's the red herring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: No, because often the cause of civil war is the desire for national independence. And I'd like you to be clear: do you really believe that Europe, not the set of countries that happen to resided in the continent of Europe, but the set of countries that share the political and cultural values that often fall under the heading of "Western values" hasn't been more peaceful in the last 70 years than in the previous 2,000? I like your first line....true... I don't think the violence ever left...whether worse or not... Will let you know tho … gotta study some older European stuff....funny thing happened when I went to see If I could trace the native American in my kids ancestry.....LOLOL...one documented branch I got back about 1200 years to the mid 800's....but those damn Vikings didn't keep any records LOL... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bormio Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 14 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: No, because often the cause of civil war is the desire for national independence. And I'd like you to be clear: do you really believe that Europe, not the set of countries that happen to reside in the continent of Europe, but the set of countries that share the political and cultural values that often fall under the heading of "Western values" hasn't been more peaceful in the last 70 years than in the previous 2,000? Yeah, with the US and USSR pointing missiles at one another, and populations totally decimated by and fatigued from war, I can’t see why France and Italy did not go to war over some territorial dispute, like in the good old days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 15 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: If you've got the definition of the one, then you've got the definition of the other. You used "easier". Do you not know what it means? Where's the red herring? never said it was easy...said it was easier.....big difference... the rest was just lost in translation..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 28 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: No, because often the cause of civil war is the desire for national independence. often yes, but sometimes don't you just get the sense that France is not seeking 'national independence'.....but simply revolting against the current power structure? My very first question to you was pretty much the same...how do you tag this exactly as 'nationalism' I see lots of examples where you think nationalism bad, but still don't see how you are going to put these protests in that box.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Bormio said: Yeah, with the US and USSR pointing missiles at one another, and populations totally decimated by and fatigued from war, I can’t see why France and Italy did not go to war over some territorial dispute, like in the good old days. But I guess the 30 wars that @Troll listed aren't captured by that same explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Bormio said: Italy is going to do what is best for Italy, Germany for Germany, Britain for Britain etc. Their governments are elected by their people, and ultimately respond to them - not other European citizens. If the EU gets in the way - it will collapse. Already there is significant sentiment in many countries - not just Britain - to leave. That is why the EU is making it so hard for Britain to leave - if people saw it was easy, the EU would be on the ash heap of history. Nationalism is not going away anytime soon - the world has to be determined to restrain nations who become bad actors via the application of wielded power - political, economic and military. I don't know what your point is. The EU nations weren't forced to join the EU against their will. And what does anything anyone has said so far have to do with the world's needing to be determined to restrain nations who become bad actors? I think you're having a hard time staying focused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 39 minutes ago, Troll said: never said it was easy...said it was easier.....big difference... Yeah, I said it wasn't easier, or not obviously so, because Central and South America have much smaller states but are famous for political corruption and instability. The same would go for most of Africa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 25 minutes ago, Troll said: often yes, but sometimes don't you just get the sense that France is not seeking 'national independence'.....but simply revolting against the current power structure? My very first question to you was pretty much the same...how do you tag this exactly as 'nationalism' I see lots of examples where you think nationalism bad, but still don't see how you are going to put these protests in that box.... I said that I don't know anything about what's going on in France because I don't really follow politics. My point was that the solution isn't to return to the "time-honored" practice of each nation state "act[ing] decisively in their own interest" because (as @Bormiosaid) the 20th century taught us the terrible things that happen when we don't honor that practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Belly Bob said: Yeah, I said it wasn't easier, or not obviously so, because Central and South America have much smaller states but are famous for political corruption and instability. The same would go for most of Africa. still don't know what you think you are saying.....instability implies less stable... more easily or more often changed...overthrown etc. you trying to prove my point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Troll said: still don't know what you think you are saying.....instability implies less stable... more easily or more often changed...overthrown etc. you trying to prove my point? Only if greater instability implies less corruption. But it doesn't. Consider Central America, South America, and Africa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: I said that I don't know anything about what's going on in France because I don't really follow politics. My point was that the solution isn't to return to the "time-honored" practice of each nation state "act[ing] decisively in their own interest" because (as @Bormiosaid) the 20th century taught us the terrible things that happen when we don't honor that practice. but that is WAY too broad... first you can never expect people not to act in their own best interest (regardless of government style). Second what makes you think that war is a foregone conclusion under such circumstance? You own arguments would only support the thought that we are 'past' this way of thinking, as we have had more countries in Europe (all promoting their own interests) for these last 70 years or so of 'peace', have we not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 On 12/6/2018 at 10:04 PM, Bormio said: Paris is in flames over the fuel tax, Merkel has been forced from office over immigration, and Theresa May’s ongoing sabotage of Brexit has split the Tories in two and will likely crater her government and bring the looniest Labour Party ever to power. Hell, the good ‘ol US of A seems to be a bastion of sanity in a world gone mad. What's your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Troll said: but that is WAY too broad... first you can never expect people not to act in their own best interest (regardless of government style). Second what makes you think that war is a foregone conclusion under such circumstance? You own arguments would only support the thought that we are 'past' this way of thinking, as we have had more countries in Europe (all promoting their own interests) for these last 70 years or so of 'peace', have we not? What's way too broad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: Only if greater instability implies less corruption. But it doesn't. Consider Central America, South America, and Africa. and regimes have had a higher 'turnover' there, so what exactly am I supposed to be considering??? If those governments had more power or were more global, would they not be harder to overthrow and have less 'turnover'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Troll said: and regimes have had a higher 'turnover' there, so what exactly am I supposed to be considering??? If those governments had more power or were more global, would they not be harder to overthrow and have less 'turnover'? Troll, come on, man. The point was about fixing corruption. Let's try to make this fun and informative and not dull and tedious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Belly Bob said: What's way too broad? this... 15 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: ... the solution isn't to return to the "time-honored" practice of each nation state "act[ing] decisively in their own interest" because ... 2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: Troll, come on, man. The point was about fixing corruption. Let's try to make this fun and informative and not dull and tedious. gotcha...that's why I posted the video 🤣 don't get turned off by the Trump handshake at first...there are some good chuckles in that clip LOL... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, Troll said: this... gotcha...that's why I posted the video 🤣 don't get turned off by the Trump handshake at first...there are some good chuckles in that clip LOL... I didn't see a video. But I'm still confused about what's too broad. If each nation state acts in what its citizens perceive to be their own best interest, then we get a tragedy of the commons. If that's not the position that you and @Bormio are advocating, then I have no idea what your position is or what the point of any of this is supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, Belly Bob said: I didn't see a video. But I'm still confused about what's too broad. If each nation state acts in what its citizens perceive to be their own best interest, then we get a tragedy of the commons. <<<just like the US and our 50 states? not buying it...and more often than not, it is in a countries best interests NOT to go to war btw. If that's not the position that you and @Bormio are advocating, then I have no idea what your position is or what the point of any of this is supposed to be. My only position has been that this is not a 'nationalist movement' even tho many of the aspects of the issues involved might make you think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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