So we want to be like Europe?

[Belly Bob]

44 minutes ago, Bormio said:

Europeans remain anti-semitic.  The British Labour Party is chock full of them.

Well, that's a really helpful point to make. 

[Bormio]

1 minute ago, ohio said:

So, do you want a weaponized Europe?  It would not take them long to equal the US in military might.  And maybe then some.

Yes, Europe is going to have to pay for its defense and have actual militaries.  The US taxpayer cannot underwrite that forever.  And yes, European interests are going to clash with US interests - so be it.

[Belly Bob]

15 minutes ago, Troll said:

Not sure exactly, but  help it the right way once and it's probably less than boatloads of cash (and military support) every year

Well, I don't think the infrastructure would come along without even more cash and military support. 

[Troll]

31 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

nhese facts have often been used to discount the argument that the world is overpopulated. The world isn't overpopulated. Rather, Americans disgustingly over consume.

or rather we consume what we produce... supposedly lol.

At least we are an oil energy exporter now right?

are you going to call that overproducing as well?

How about the rest of the world is 'underproducing??? hold any water?

IE. if the world is underproducing....better to expand the technology than concentrate more players on 2% of the ground ….no?

 

[Bormio]

6 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

Doesnt the European countries have weapons? They do have a military in those countries. 

For all intents and purposes, Germany does not - cause they don’t play nice with others.

[Belly Bob]

15 minutes ago, Bormio said:

Yes, Europe is going to have to pay for its defense and have actual militaries.  The US taxpayer cannot underwrite that forever.  And yes, European interests are going to clash with US interests - so be it.

Yes, because of the "time-honored" principle that nation states "act decisively in their own interests." Otherwise,  we might get another world war, or not, because we're now afraid of "total war," or, uh, another world war wouldn't even be that bad because of precision weapons. 

[HSFBfan]

1 minute ago, Bormio said:

For all intents and purposes, Germany does not - cause they don’t play nice with others.

I guess thats why the biggest air force base America has is in Rammstein Germnay 

[ohio]

32 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

How would the south winning stop me from being born? 

What are you talking about?? 

How would nazi Germany stop me from being born? Nazi Germany was not after my people. Matter of fact my people and nazi Germany were allies 

You don't understand genetics.  Even when you were conceived, you beat out 3 to 400,000 possible sperm.  You were the best swimmer.  Even if your father accidentally sneezed, one of the other sperm(possible brothers or sisters) would have impregnated mom.  Hence you would have never been born.  Now imagine if the South won or if Germany won, your mom and dad would not have met, and they would have not been born either.  So any change in history would have been catastrophic for the current world's residents.  Maybe that's why God only lets us go into the future, but not the past.

Surprised you did not know this.

[Belly Bob]

4 minutes ago, Bormio said:

For all intents and purposes, Germany does not - cause they don’t play nice with others.

Yes, Germany doesn't have a military, not really, but they dictate policy to other members of the EU to their detriment, but those other members, who do have militaries and who suffer so much for being part of the EU wouldn't dare go to war, because of their fear of total war. 

You just have to think it through. 

[HSFBfan]

3 minutes ago, ohio said:

You don't understand genetics.  Even when you were conceived, you beat out 3 to 400,000 possible sperm.  You were the best swimmer.  Even if your father accidentally sneezed, one of the other sperm(possible brothers or sisters) would have impregnated mom.  Hence you would have never been born.  Now imagine if the South won or if Germany won, your mom and dad would not have met, and they would have not been born either.  So any change in history would have been catastrophic for the current world's residents.  Maybe that's why God only lets us go into the future, but not the past.

Surprised you did not know this.

I guess I didnt know or understand. Thanks for the clarification 

But you also make it sound like its a bad thing 

[HSFBfan]

The german people for the first time since WW2 want a stronger military 

https://www.thetrumpet.com/18019-the-german-people-now-want-a-stronger-milita

[Troll]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

Yes, because of the "time-honored" principle that nation states "act decisively in their own interests." Otherwise,  we might get another world war, or not, because we're now afraid of "total war," or, uh, another world war wouldn't even be that bad because precision weapons. 

next world war will (again)be based on eugenics, and the weapons of choice will not be a cannon...or a bullet..

genetic warfare has arrived...

they can play with their climate warfare until that one hits widespread...

 

[Belly Bob]

31 minutes ago, ohio said:

You don't understand genetics.  Even when you were conceived, you beat out 3 to 400,000 possible sperm.  You were the best swimmer.  Even if your father accidentally sneezed, one of the other sperm(possible brothers or sisters) would have impregnated mom.  Hence you would have never been born.  Now imagine if the South won or if Germany won, your mom and dad would not have met, and they would have not been born either.  So any change in history would have been catastrophic for the current world's residents.  Maybe that's why God only lets us go into the future, but not the past.

Surprised you did not know this.

Right. Almost any policy change in the distant past would have resulted in none of us being born, since your identity is determined by your mother's ovum and your father's sperm, and almost any policy change in the past would result in the non-union of the particular ovum and the particular sperm that constitutes you. 

[Belly Bob]

2 minutes ago, Troll said:

next world war will (again)be based on eugenics, and the weapons of choice will not be a cannon...or a bullet..

genetic warfare has arrived...

they can play with their climate warfare until that one hits widespread...

 

Right.

But in light of those facts, let's all advocate even harder for nationalism. 

[Bormio]

2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Yes, because of the "time-honored" principle that nation states "act decisively in their own interests." Otherwise,  we might get another world war, or not, because we're now afraid of "total war," or, uh, another world war wouldn't even be that bad because precision weapons. 

If you think that US military hegemony is going to persist ad Infinitum you are nuts.  Russia, China, even Europe want military power to compete with the US (see Macron’s comments about a European military).  We may like being the only superpower, but it is bound to be temporary.  In a world of limited wars, US troops cannot fight them all and we do not want them to.

[Belly Bob]

15 minutes ago, Troll said:

or rather we consume what we produce... supposedly lol.

At least we are an oil energy exporter now right?

are you going to call that overproducing as well?

How about the rest of the world is 'underproducing??? hold any water?

IE. if the world is underproducing....better to expand the technology that concentrate more players on 2% of the ground ….no?

in

I'd like to see technologies shared and rich countries consume less and poor countries produce more, but the problem, I don't think, is technological at bottom, but political and cultural. 

It's an iteration of the "tragedy of the commons," which economists have been talking about for a very long time now. But there is no easy solution to it, because there is no political power to enforce a top-down solution and I doubt any solution will come from the bottom up, because of the enormous cultural differences among the people who would have to agree to a solution. 

[Troll]

Just now, Belly Bob said:

Right.

But in light of those facts, let's all advocate even harder for nationalism. 

do you like the idea of 50 states in the US???

do they serve the local populations better than one big consolidated one size fits all set of rules? etc.

y or n ???

In say any business, do you know how the 'centralization/decentralization' cycle effects competitive advantage or production?

Why would you think that one size fits all rules for the entire world would be better performance wise than say 50 state... 'countries'???

 

more like 'localism' than any 'nationalism' ….

 

[Belly Bob]

1 minute ago, Bormio said:

If you think that US military hegemony is going to persist ad Infinitum you are nuts.  Russia, China, even Europe want military power to compete with the US (see Macron’s comments about a European military).  We may like being the only superpower, but it is bound to be temporary.  In a world of limited wars, US troops cannot fight them all and we do not want them to.

When did I even suggest that the US hegemony would last forever?

[Belly Bob]

Just now, Troll said:

do you like the idea of 50 states in the US???

do they serve the local populations better than one big consolidated one size fits all set of rules? etc.

y or n ???

In say any business, do you know how the 'centralization/decentralization' cycle effects competitive advantage or production?

Why would you think that one size fits all rules for the entire world would be better performance wise than say 50 state... 'countries'???

 

more like 'localism' than any 'nationalism' ….

 

Sorry, I was thinking that we need a tertium quid, maybe something that avoids the problems that arise when hundreds of countries act for their own best interests but also avoids the problems of a suffocating "one-size-fits-all" central government. 

That would be a good thing, given the nuclear weapons and the biological weapons and the worries about drinkable water and so on. 

[Bormio]

3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

When did I even suggest that the US hegemony would last forever?

You are so struck by 70 years of European peace.  It is not due to European integration - rather due to 40 years of a Cold War that had the US and the USSR staring at each other, and another 30 years of US intervention and military might overseeing Europe.  That cannot last forever - and Europeans are tiring of it anyways.  So yes, they will have stronger militaries and will have to live with them - Germany included.  And yes, Germany does run the EU and has not had to worry about military defense - because of the US military.

[Troll]

3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Sorry, I was thinking that we need a tertium quid, maybe something that avoids the problems that arise when hundreds of countries act for their own best interests but also avoids the problems of a suffocating "one-size-fits-all" central government. 

That would be a good thing, given the nuclear weapons and the biological weapons and the worries about drinkable water and so on. 

yeah but you cannot claim that 'country governments act only in their own best interest... and then claim that one world gov would not do the same....and I don't mean for the 'world'......I mean for the 'gov'...

Kind of like a two party system for the world would probably be needed at a minimum....but we see how that works over time , so I can get with your troika idea, but as you also state....several hundred banana republic countries all playing localism ids probably not a good recipe.

[Belly Bob]

16 minutes ago, Bormio said:

You are so struck by 70 years of European peace.  It is not due to European integration - rather due to 40 years of a Cold War that had the US and the USSR staring at each other, and another 30 years of US intervention and military might overseeing Europe.  That cannot last forever - and Europeans are tiring of it anyways.  So yes, they will have stronger militaries and will have to live with them - Germany included.  And yes, Germany does run the EU and has not had to worry about military defense - because of the US military.

Yes, I am struck by the lack of war in Europe these last 70 years as compared to the previous 2,000 years. And I suspect it has something to do with Europe's general rejection of the retarded nationalisms and the ape-like bravado that most historians believe contributed to the outbreak of the great wars of the 20th century.

Like Plato allegedly said, only the dead have seen the end of war. But we're talking about the value of nationalism, not whether the US will always be on top or whether Europe will ever go to war again. 

[Belly Bob]

12 minutes ago, Troll said:

yeah but you cannot claim that 'country governments act only in their own best interest... and then claim that one world gov would not do the same....and I don't mean for the 'world'......I mean for the 'gov'...

Kind of like a two party system for the world would probably be needed at a minimum....but we see how that works over time , so I can get with your troika idea, but as you also state....several hundred banana republic countries all playing localism ids probably not a good recipe.

I didn't claim that "country governments act only in their own best interest." I claimed that @Bormio's idea that we return to that "time-honored" policy is a mistake. 

Human beings, and politicians in particular, have a tendency to act for their own best interests. That's not a special problem that would count against any form of world government. 

[Troll]

2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Yes, I am struck by the lack of war in Europe these last 70 years ….

But we're talking about the value of nationalism, not whether the US will always be on top or whether Europe will ever go to war again. 

Cereally???

• 1944–1956 Guerrilla war in the Baltic states
• 1945–1949 Greek Civil War
• 1947–1962 Romanian anti-communist resistance movement
• 1953 Uprising in East Germany
• 1956 Uprising in Poznań
• 1956 Hungarian Revolution
• 1956–1962 Operation Harvest
• 1958 Opération Corse
• 1958 First Cod War
• 1959–2011 Basque conflict
• 1967 Greek coup d'état
• 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
• 1968–1998 The Troubles
• 1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
• 1972 Bugojno group
• 1972–1973 Second Cod War
• 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
• 1974 Carnation Revolution
• 1975–1976 Third Cod War
• 1975 Portuguese coup d'état attempt
• 1976–present Corsican Insurgency
• 1981 Spanish coup d'état attempt
• 1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
• 1989 Romanian Revolution
• 1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
• 1991 January Events
• 1991 The Barricades
• 1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
• 1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
• 1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
• 1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
• 1992 Transnistria War
• 1992 East Prigorodny Conflict
• 1992–1993 War in Abkhazia
• 1992–1995 Bosnian War
• 1993 Cherbourg incident
• 1993 Russian constitutional crisis
• 1994–1996 First Chechen War
• 1995–1996 Imia/Kardak military crisis
• 1997–1998 Cyprus Missile Crisis
• 1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
• 1998–1999 Kosovo War
• 1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
• 1998 Six-Day War of Abkhazia
• 1999 War of Dagestan
• 1999–2009 Second Chechen War
• 1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley

• 2001 Georgia, Kodori crisis
• 2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
• 2004–2013 Unrest in Kosovo
  • 2004 unrest in Kosovo
  • 2008 unrest in Kosovo
  • 2011–2013 North Kosovo crisis
• 2004 Georgia, Adjara crisis
• 2004 Georgia, South Ossetia skirmishes
• 2006 Georgia, Kodori crisis
• 2007–2015 Civil war in Ingushetia
• 2008 Mardakert skirmishes
• 2008 Russia–Georgia war
• 2009–2017 Insurgency in the North Caucasus
• 2013–2014 Euromaidan and pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine
  • 2014 Crimean crisis
  • 2014–present War in Donbass
• 2015 Kumanovo clashes
• 2016 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes
• 2018 Gyunnyut clashes

 

Like what planet do you live on?...🤣

 

 

 

[Belly Bob]

10 minutes ago, Troll said:

Cereally???

• 1944–1956 Guerrilla war in the Baltic states
• 1945–1949 Greek Civil War
• 1947–1962 Romanian anti-communist resistance movement
• 1953 Uprising in East Germany
• 1956 Uprising in Poznań
• 1956 Hungarian Revolution
• 1956–1962 Operation Harvest
• 1958 Opération Corse
• 1958 First Cod War
• 1959–2011 Basque conflict
• 1967 Greek coup d'état
• 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
• 1968–1998 The Troubles
• 1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
• 1972 Bugojno group
• 1972–1973 Second Cod War
• 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
• 1974 Carnation Revolution
• 1975–1976 Third Cod War
• 1975 Portuguese coup d'état attempt
• 1976–present Corsican Insurgency
• 1981 Spanish coup d'état attempt
• 1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
• 1989 Romanian Revolution
• 1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
• 1991 January Events
• 1991 The Barricades
• 1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
• 1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
• 1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
• 1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
• 1992 Transnistria War
• 1992 East Prigorodny Conflict
• 1992–1993 War in Abkhazia
• 1992–1995 Bosnian War
• 1993 Cherbourg incident
• 1993 Russian constitutional crisis
• 1994–1996 First Chechen War
• 1995–1996 Imia/Kardak military crisis
• 1997–1998 Cyprus Missile Crisis
• 1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
• 1998–1999 Kosovo War
• 1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
• 1998 Six-Day War of Abkhazia
• 1999 War of Dagestan
• 1999–2009 Second Chechen War
• 1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley

• 2001 Georgia, Kodori crisis
• 2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
• 2004–2013 Unrest in Kosovo
  • 2004 unrest in Kosovo
  • 2008 unrest in Kosovo
  • 2011–2013 North Kosovo crisis
• 2004 Georgia, Adjara crisis
• 2004 Georgia, South Ossetia skirmishes
• 2006 Georgia, Kodori crisis
• 2007–2015 Civil war in Ingushetia
• 2008 Mardakert skirmishes
• 2008 Russia–Georgia war
• 2009–2017 Insurgency in the North Caucasus
• 2013–2014 Euromaidan and pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine
  • 2014 Crimean crisis
  • 2014–present War in Donbass
• 2015 Kumanovo clashes
• 2016 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes
• 2018 Gyunnyut clashes

 

Like what planet do you live on?...🤣

 

 

 

After glancing at the list for 10 seconds, these look like mostly civil wars in mostly Eastern European countries, which I would think are culturally and politically different from Western European countries in important ways.

I hope we're still talking about the value of nationalism and that we haven't changed the subject.