1988 Bengals-Bills AFC title game, shady NFL!

[badrouter]

Watching this for the first time now. Pretty shocking, laughable stuff. The week of the AFC title game, the NFL suddenly announced that, if a team used a hurry-up offense with the intent of catching the defense off guard, it would be an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty...against the offense! The Bengals had used the hurry-up for most all of that 1988 season. And then the week of the AFC title game the NFL changed the rules. I guess the NFL still doesn't really like the hurry-up offenses too much, as you don't see near as much of it at that level as college or high school. Still, my jaw hit the floor as I watched Dick Enberg mention the change!

[Nolebull813]

I hope I don’t spoiler the ending for you, but the Bengals win this game.

[badrouter]

1 minute ago, Nolebull813 said:

I hope I don’t spoiler the ending for you, but the Bengals win this game.

haha, yes I know this. I prefer watching old games to watching TikTok or some crime drama.

[Ga96]

Most teams have situational hurry up offenses. The only thing different is when subs come in on offense the defense gets a chance to sub. Other than that its fair game. 

[Cossacks]

2 hours ago, badrouter said:

Watching this for the first time now. Pretty shocking, laughable stuff. The week of the AFC title game, the NFL suddenly announced that, if a team used a hurry-up offense with the intent of catching the defense off guard, it would be an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty...against the offense! The Bengals had used the hurry-up for most all of that 1988 season. And then the week of the AFC title game the NFL changed the rules. I guess the NFL still doesn't really like the hurry-up offenses too much, as you don't see near as much of it at that level as college or high school. Still, my jaw hit the floor as I watched Dick Enberg mention the change!

I remember that. Wyche was so pissed he told Rozelle if they lost he’d be open about the last minute crap and every gambler who took a beating could take it up with Rozelle 😂.

[badrouter]

1 hour ago, Ga96 said:

Most teams have situational hurry up offenses. The only thing different is when subs come in on offense the defense gets a chance to sub. Other than that its fair game. 

Yeah, but, back then, the NFL was SUPER conservative and slow to adapt. Not too long ago, QBs that played predominately in the shotgun in college were considered "projects" because it was simply assumed that most every snap would be taken from under center! You'd read about the struggles of getting QBs competent and comfortable playing from under center. And of course there's been long-standing resentment of "dual-threat" QBs, which only in the last few years has started to subside. The NFL has always been insecure about the fact that some parts of the country actually support college football more than they do the pros. So, they've been combative at times when it comes to adopting ideas that originated at the college or high school level. IMO, the only reason they've relented with the spread, dual-threat QBs is the newfound obsession with racial "equity". They realized they needed to let QBs like Lamar, Kyler Murray etc play the style they were best suited for. For decades, QBs flat weren't *allowed* to play that way. The owners just didn't want to see "college" offenses in the NFL. Thankfully, they've given up on that stuff.

[Cossacks]

1 hour ago, badrouter said:

Yeah, but, back then, the NFL was SUPER conservative and slow to adapt. Not too long ago, QBs that played predominately in the shotgun in college were considered "projects" because it was simply assumed that most every snap would be taken from under center! You'd read about the struggles of getting QBs competent and comfortable playing from under center. And of course there's been long-standing resentment of "dual-threat" QBs, which only in the last few years has started to subside. The NFL has always been insecure about the fact that some parts of the country actually support college football more than they do the pros. So, they've been combative at times when it comes to adopting ideas that originated at the college or high school level. IMO, the only reason they've relented with the spread, dual-threat QBs is the newfound obsession with racial "equity". They realized they needed to let QBs like Lamar, Kyler Murray etc play the style they were best suited for. For decades, QBs flat weren't *allowed* to play that way. The owners just didn't want to see "college" offenses in the NFL. Thankfully, they've given up on that stuff.

Ageee to some point. But the NFL is a completely different animal. Far superior coaches and athletes and razor thin margin between top teams and bottom teams. It’s not like HS or college where you will have  56-7 type games. Games week in and week out are a lot more competitive.

It used to be slow to change for sure and good points about the shotgun. The Cowboys were a top 5 team of the 70’s (with Raiders, Steelers, Dolphins and Vikings) and yet nobody else was having their quarterback be like Roger Staubach.

Now its more of a copycat league, but also ever evolving. The dual threat is a newer phenomenon, but not sure there’s been a resentment to it? It’s a $$$ decision. Hard to expose your franchise player to potential injury, which is huge. You don’t see any option offenses in the NFL for this reason. You would prob need 10 QB’s on your roster 😂. And as long as pocket passers keep winning SB they won’t go away. I will be curios how Jackson and Murray’s numbers hold up the next 4-5 years?  Trends come and the league adapts and catches up quickly. 

 

[Columbiafan]

7 hours ago, Cossacks said:

Ageee to some point. But the NFL is a completely different animal. Far superior coaches and athletes and razor thin margin between top teams and bottom teams. It’s not like HS or college where you will have  56-7 type games. Games week in and week out are a lot more competitive.

It used to be slow to change for sure and good points about the shotgun. The Cowboys were a top 5 team of the 70’s (with Raiders, Steelers, Dolphins and Vikings) and yet nobody else was having their quarterback be like Roger Staubach.

Now its more of a copycat league, but also ever evolving. The dual threat is a newer phenomenon, but not sure there’s been a resentment to it? It’s a $$$ decision. Hard to expose your franchise player to potential injury, which is huge. You don’t see any option offenses in the NFL for this reason. You would prob need 10 QB’s on your roster 😂. And as long as pocket passers keep winning SB they won’t go away. I will be curios how Jackson and Murray’s numbers hold up the next 4-5 years?  Trends come and the league adapts and catches up quickly. 

 

You mean the shotgun right? Because Fran Tarkenton was a scrambling QB as well 

 

Plus Ken Stabler would occasionally scramble but not as much as Staubach or Tarkenton

[badrouter]

1 hour ago, Columbiafan said:

You mean the shotgun right? Because Fran Tarkenton was a scrambling QB as well 

 

Plus Ken Stabler would occasionally scramble but not as much as Staubach or Tarkenton

I wasn't referring to "scrambling". Scrambling is when you drop back to pass, and then seek to avoid the pass rush. Dual-threat QBs have designed running plays. QB Draw, QB Power, Zone read, speed option etc.  

[badrouter]

9 hours ago, Cossacks said:

Ageee to some point. But the NFL is a completely different animal. Far superior coaches and athletes and razor thin margin between top teams and bottom teams. It’s not like HS or college where you will have  56-7 type games. Games week in and week out are a lot more competitive.

It used to be slow to change for sure and good points about the shotgun. The Cowboys were a top 5 team of the 70’s (with Raiders, Steelers, Dolphins and Vikings) and yet nobody else was having their quarterback be like Roger Staubach.

Now its more of a copycat league, but also ever evolving. The dual threat is a newer phenomenon, but not sure there’s been a resentment to it? It’s a $$$ decision. Hard to expose your franchise player to potential injury, which is huge. You don’t see any option offenses in the NFL for this reason. You would prob need 10 QB’s on your roster 😂. And as long as pocket passers keep winning SB they won’t go away. I will be curios how Jackson and Murray’s numbers hold up the next 4-5 years?  Trends come and the league adapts and catches up quickly. 

 

A lot of franchise players are players at other positions. Hilariously disproportionate in QBs, but still many non-QBs. You can't hide Aaron Donald from contact, for example.

The second bolded remark is the one most NFL loyalists cling to the most. "The defenses are too smart" is an argument that could be used to explain why literally no offense could ever score a point, ever. LOL. I've been arguing about this shit for more than twenty years. You'd think all the points we see being scored these days would move the meter some. But, old habits die hard.

[Cossacks]

1 hour ago, Columbiafan said:

You mean the shotgun right? Because Fran Tarkenton was a scrambling QB as well 

 

Plus Ken Stabler would occasionally scramble but not as much as Staubach or Tarkenton

Yes the shotgun. Those guys would scramble, you are correct. But they were generally not designed plays it was usually when the pocket broke down.

[Cossacks]

17 minutes ago, badrouter said:

A lot of franchise players are players at other positions. Hilariously disproportionate in QBs, but still many non-QBs. You can't hide Aaron Donald from contact, for example.

The second bolded remark is the one most NFL loyalists cling to the most. "The defenses are too smart" is an argument that could be used to explain why literally no offense could ever score a point, ever. LOL. I've been arguing about this shit for more than twenty years. You'd think all the points we see being scored these days would move the meter some. But, old habits die hard.

No arguing that. A great LT is often more valuable. 20 years. That’s a long time and a lot of effort over offense versus defense😂. Remember it’s for entertainment purposes and enjoyment.

[CaliNorth]

13 hours ago, badrouter said:

Yeah, but, back then, the NFL was SUPER conservative and slow to adapt. Not too long ago, QBs that played predominately in the shotgun in college were considered "projects" because it was simply assumed that most every snap would be taken from under center! You'd read about the struggles of getting QBs competent and comfortable playing from under center. And of course there's been long-standing resentment of "dual-threat" QBs, which only in the last few years has started to subside. The NFL has always been insecure about the fact that some parts of the country actually support college football more than they do the pros. So, they've been combative at times when it comes to adopting ideas that originated at the college or high school level. IMO, the only reason they've relented with the spread, dual-threat QBs is the newfound obsession with racial "equity". They realized they needed to let QBs like Lamar, Kyler Murray etc play the style they were best suited for. For decades, QBs flat weren't *allowed* to play that way. The owners just didn't want to see "college" offenses in the NFL. Thankfully, they've given up on that stuff.

I don't think it is as cut and dry as you propose . In the past you had some running QB's in Douglas , Cunningham , Vick , etc.  None of them could throw to the level what a NFL qb is supposed to, with Cunningham being so erratic. Steve Young changed that in a big way . It took him a year or so of starting to learn how to temper the temptation to " Run first ". When he settled in , his ability to run was a tremendous weapon . But he was a top rated passer firstly. Most of the great athletic black qb's just weren't good enough passers, and eventually the NFL defenses learn quickly and take the run option away ( Kaepernick ) . It seems only pretty recently that the Duel threats have greatly increased their passing ( Rodgers , Wilson, Mahomes, ) abilities to give defenses nightmares .  Still , I think Mahomes may be an average at best pocket passer. What he can do though,  on a broken play or rollout ,  is unequaled . 

[badrouter]

6 hours ago, CaliNorth said:

I don't think it is as cut and dry as you propose . In the past you had some running QB's in Douglas , Cunningham , Vick , etc.  None of them could throw to the level what a NFL qb is supposed to, with Cunningham being so erratic. Steve Young changed that in a big way . It took him a year or so of starting to learn how to temper the temptation to " Run first ". When he settled in , his ability to run was a tremendous weapon . But he was a top rated passer firstly. Most of the great athletic black qb's just weren't good enough passers, and eventually the NFL defenses learn quickly and take the run option away ( Kaepernick ) . It seems only pretty recently that the Duel threats have greatly increased their passing ( Rodgers , Wilson, Mahomes, ) abilities to give defenses nightmares .  Still , I think Mahomes may be an average at best pocket passer. What he can do though,  on a broken play or rollout ,  is unequaled . 

The key for a lot of the dual-threat guys is to have the designed running plays be concerning enough to the defense to force adjustments to defenses called. If a defense decides to go with a "contain" approach, meaning delayed or no upfield rush, the QB ends up with loads of time to sit back and wait for receivers to come open. Much easier to be an effective passer when the defense purposefully gives you time.