Belly Bob Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 3 hours ago, World Citizen said: No we are not. That is a monotheistic concept that does not apply to those who do not believe in a God that judges and punishes. Imho But I have made plenty of mistakes in my life and am not done yet probably. The Hindus and the Buddhists believe that we pay for our moral mistakes. What's the deep difference between karma and the "you reap what you sow" of Scripture, or between sin the concept of doing what you morally oughtn't? And as you know, I'm not picking a fight but am just curious what you've got in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: That was the joke. I don't think it landed. The heathen @World Citizen is such a sinner that he doesn't even recognize that he's a sinner. Keep an eye out for him. OK 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: That was the joke. I don't think it landed. The heathen @World Citizen is such a sinner that he doesn't even recognize that he's a sinner. Keep an eye out for him. So, if World Citizen is becoming a sinner; is he trending up or down? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 3 hours ago, ohio said: Polysexuals are more interesting than polytheists. 👩❤️💋👨 👩❤️💋👩 👩❤️👨 👩❤️👩 🤣 and I guess.... 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Troll said: and I guess.... 😜 LOL. I said interesting, not better. LOL Plus two guys are a no, no......but two women..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 Just now, ohio said: LOL. I said interesting, not better. LOL unfortunately (whether you realized it or not yet lol) it could easily come off sounding more like.... ...a 'proposition'' 🤣 given the subject matter and phrasing What else can I say 🤣 but thanks anyways LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Troll said: unfortunately (whether you realized it or not yet lol) it could easily come off sounding more like.... ...a 'proposition'' 🤣 given the subject matter and phrasing What else can I say 🤣 but thanks anyways LOL I don't like this definition of polysexual. I thought it meant me and 4 Hooters girls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 21 minutes ago, ohio said: I don't like this definition of polysexual. I thought it meant me and 4 Hooters girls. Dude, did you actually listen to that whole psychotic rubbish MSM explanation they want us to entertain?? LOLOL Sometimes ya just might want to check your terms first 🤣... polysexual is definitely not just some young polygamist....😲 Maybe you should just stick to the oldschool 'swinger' moniker or something... safer that way 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Troll said: Dude, did you actually listen to that whole psychotic rubbish MSM explanation they want us to entertain?? LOLOL Sometimes ya just might want to check your terms first 🤣... polygamist is definitely not polysexual....😲 Maybe you should just stick to the oldschool 'swinger' moniker or something... safer that way 👍 Just listened to the video. Yuck. Stupid new terms are ruining everything. So much for a good old threesome with two Hooters babes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, ohio said: Just listened to the video. Yuck. Stupid new terms are ruining everything. so much for a good old threesome with two Hooters babes. Yup... gotta agree... but if you look hard enough... that is probably an option that won't be deleted anytime soon... and because I know you like being haunted by these pictures.... just pick any two 😜 lol 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Troll said: Yup... gotta agree... but if you look hard enough... that is probably an option that won't be deleted anytime soon... and because I know you like being haunted by these pictures.... just pick any two 😜 lol Hmmmm......decisions, decisions....so many to chose from... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World Citizen Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 19 hours ago, Belly Bob said: The Hindus and the Buddhists believe that we pay for our moral mistakes. What's the deep difference between karma and the "you reap what you sow" of Scripture, or between sin the concept of doing what you morally oughtn't? And as you know, I'm not picking a fight but am just curious what you've got in mind. As I view it - The Hindu and Buddhist idea of Karma is different than the Western idea of Karma to start with. However, the difference between Karma and a sinner is that a sinner is considered a sinner before any mistake is made and Karma you pay for the mistakes only after you have made a mistake. Original sin, again as far as I understand it, is a Western idea born from our monotheistic history. Now I don't agree with the idea of Karma as it's viewed in the west either. I view Karma not as a payment for any mistakes one may make, as that to me suggests a supreme being judging you and directing some kind of payment for your mistakes, but as a function of energy. Some energy is positive and some negative and every thought and action one has sends out has energy and what goes out always comes back in. A balance is achieved and the most important aspect is that individually we create our life that we live and our views about that life are reflected in our lives. The saying 'you reap what you sow' is 100% correct and it is unavoidable. Imho. You look at the world with love and the world becomes loving. And the opposite is true, you look at the world with hate and suspicion and that is exactly what you get. That is why it baffles me when people express so much damn hate or hate anything for that matter. Completely works against you when you do that. I say this knowing that each of us live our lives with a purpose or something that we are here to do or learn. It may be that some are here for only a short while (an example might be a child dying during birth) because that is what we wanted to experience or we are here in order for the mother to have that experience. As spirit, which I believe we all spiritual beings having an human experience, the thought of dying is no big deal. The big deal is experiencing what you came to experience and hopefully learn from. From the point of view of the spirit everything is in cooperation with other spirits and agreed to before hand. Even murder and rape and all of it. And at the end of our lives the only judge will be ourselves and not some deity. I mean, it does not make sense to me that we would be given free will and then be punished for exercising that free will. Kind of got off track and I hope I answered your question. This is a fun topic for me and it is extremely interesting. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World Citizen Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 23 hours ago, Troll said: Just curious and don't mean to pry, so you don't have to reply if you don't want to but... Are you an atheist with an 'open mind'....or do you believe your Atheistic views are set, or otherwise proven in your mind??? Most definitely have an open mind. If someone refuses to learn or thinks they know everything already, that would be a sad state. Unless of course you are Polytheistic 🤔...in which case I might be even more interested in the reasoning LOL No I am not an Atheist. I would say I am a spiritualist and that we are spirits having an human experience. Definitely not a Polytheist (although I would say that we are all Gods as stated in the Koran or Gods in the making). I would say that I believe in something, and any description of that something is a waste of time as it would be far above my pay grade (spiritually speaking). I'll just say that love is an actual power but where that power comes from I do not know. The idea of God as it is thought of in the bible is a very simplistic (and there is nothing wrong with being simplistic in regards to God) and even absurd to me. But that's just me and I try like hell to not judge people for their beliefs and actions. Sometimes I am successful in not judging and other times not so much but I will continue to try. Damn hard thing to do imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, World Citizen said: No I am not an Atheist. I would say I am a spiritualist and that we are spirits having an human experience. Definitely not a Polytheist (although I would say that we are all Gods as stated in the Koran or Gods in the making). I would say that I believe in something, and any description of that something is a waste of time as it would be far above my pay grade (spiritually speaking). I'll just say that love is an actual power but where that power comes from I do not know. The idea of God as it is thought of in the bible is a very simplistic (and there is nothing wrong with being simplistic in regards to God) and even absurd to me. But that's just me and I try like hell to not judge people for their beliefs and actions. Sometimes I am successful in not judging and other times not so much but I will continue to try. Damn hard thing to do imo. Namaste 🙏 👍 Was afraid you were a screwed up Atheist/Anarchist LOL In such a belief system, you should find it easy to understand why spiritual beings would seek out organizations that claim to have better knowledge or understanding of that 'love power' or 'goodness' everyone finds so elusive ...and as that is the stated goal of most religions (to bring one closer to god or good), you need not judge anyone as 'less enlightened' if they continue to follow familial traditions or any certain religion. The caveat is that those religions are 'manmade organizations', and YES they are not only fallible, but corrupted with the 'original sin' which you noted. You might find it easier to view 'original sin' as the Yang to the Ying....or the flipside of your choice, when you make the wrong or 'bad' one....and no matter how much you believe you are perfect at birth, you were born within the 'human condition' which WILL make some 'wrong choices'...…...just like any religious organization (or group of men, which can exponentially multiply those mistakes when groups don't get it right). Religions strike me as 'groups' seeking enlightenment thru their own path, history, tradition, and ceremony.... Sure many follow the tradition and ceremony for appearances and inclusion, and are not truly spiritual people, but today it is more likely to find people that believe they are catholic/jewish/pick your religion, that act spiritually based on those upbringings but do not attend church/temple/etc. Your relationship with your religion is very much like the relationship you describe with the world.... and what you put in. Yes I find this stuff interesting too....LOLOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 1 hour ago, World Citizen said: No I am not an Atheist. PS..I've been checking out the PragerU videos today and look what was up next LOLOL... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 2 hours ago, World Citizen said: As I view it - The Hindu and Buddhist idea of Karma is different than the Western idea of Karma to start with. However, the difference between Karma and a sinner is that a sinner is considered a sinner before any mistake is made and Karma you pay for the mistakes only after you have made a mistake. Original sin, again as far as I understand it, is a Western idea born from our monotheistic history. Now I don't agree with the idea of Karma as it's viewed in the west either. I view Karma not as a payment for any mistakes one may make, as that to me suggests a supreme being judging you and directing some kind of payment for your mistakes, but as a function of energy. Some energy is positive and some negative and every thought and action one has sends out has energy and what goes out always comes back in. A balance is achieved and the most important aspect is that individually we create our life that we live and our views about that life are reflected in our lives. The saying 'you reap what you sow' is 100% correct and it is unavoidable. Imho. You look at the world with love and the world becomes loving. And the opposite is true, you look at the world with hate and suspicion and that is exactly what you get. That is why it baffles me when people express so much damn hate or hate anything for that matter. Completely works against you when you do that. I say this knowing that each of us live our lives with a purpose or something that we are here to do or learn. It may be that some are here for only a short while (an example might be a child dying during birth) because that is what we wanted to experience or we are here in order for the mother to have that experience. As spirit, which I believe we all spiritual beings having an human experience, the thought of dying is no big deal. The big deal is experiencing what you came to experience and hopefully learn from. From the point of view of the spirit everything is in cooperation with other spirits and agreed to before hand. Even murder and rape and all of it. And at the end of our lives the only judge will be ourselves and not some deity. I mean, it does not make sense to me that we would be given free will and then be punished for exercising that free will. Kind of got off track and I hope I answered your question. This is a fun topic for me and it is extremely interesting. I appreciate the thoughtful post, and I wish I had more time to respond to it, but we're going ice skating in a minute. Still, I can't help but fire off a few knee-jerk reactions. Apologies at the front end. I think a plausible alternative which is broadly consistent with your view is that God made the universe in such a way that rational beings may perfect themselves in part by learning in all sorts of different ways that there are painful costs to doing what you ought not to do. It's like what Aeschylus used to say: we learn through the pain of experience; "God's awful grace", as he called it, often comes involuntarily. Free will, I would have thought, is a necessary condition for punishment to make any sense at all. It makes little sense to punish someone for something they couldn't refrain from doing. But (to use your examples) if you could have refrained from raping or murdering, and you chose to do those things anyway, then I, myself, think it makes perfect sense to say that you ought to be punished for them. Otherwise, the world would be unjust, and would for that reason speak against God. You seem to think that if people have free will, then it makes little sense to punish them. So it's almost the exact opposite view. But maybe I'm not understanding your point. Putting yourself in the position of judge doesn't seem to help, since the relevant reactive attitudes -- like guilt -- themselves seem to make sense only if we believe that we're free. If we're judging how we did, we have to believe that we could have done better or worse. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Belly Bob said: I appreciate the thoughtful post, and I wish I had more time to respond to it, but we're going ice skating in a minute. Don't get too crazy out there.... 😄...but have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World Citizen Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 20 hours ago, Belly Bob said: I appreciate the thoughtful post, and I wish I had more time to respond to it, but we're going ice skating in a minute. Still, I can't help but fire off a few knee-jerk reactions. Apologies at the front end. No apologies necessary. Appreciate the discussion and I find it is helpful. ☺️ I think a plausible alternative which is broadly consistent with your view is that God made the universe in such a way that rational beings may perfect themselves in part by learning in all sorts of different ways that there are painful costs to doing what you ought not to do. It's like what Aeschylus used to say: we learn through the pain of experience; "God's awful grace", as he called it, often comes involuntarily. That makes sense to me but I think "...costs to doing what you ought not to do" could better be said as "...consequences that result from whether your actions (Karma) are either helpful or unhelpful". I think the distinction between 'ought not to do' and 'helpful or unhelpful' is important. What you should do or not do is determined by the moral position of society at any particular time and may change but to view it as helpful or not works no matter what moral position society may have. I use the term helpful as actions which spring from selfless, compassion, Kindness, wisdom, etc. Unhelpful actions that spring from greed, hate and ignorance. Intentions are important in whether your actions are helpful or unhelpful. Free will, I would have thought, is a necessary condition for punishment to make any sense at all. It makes little sense to punish someone for something they couldn't refrain from doing. But (to use your examples) if you could have refrained from raping or murdering, and you chose to do those things anyway, then I, myself, think it makes perfect sense to say that you ought to be punished for them. Otherwise, the world would be unjust, and would for that reason speak against God. I agree 100% that people who do bad things should be punished. Rape and murder somebody, you should go to jail in order to protect the rest of us. That is the right thing to do and the necessary thing to do. You seem to think that if people have free will, then it makes little sense to punish them. So it's almost the exact opposite view. But maybe I'm not understanding your point. Only in the spiritual sense does it not make sense. Here on Earth if you screw up and kill somebody you will get punished obviously. When we die we do not face spiritual punishment for killing somebody while on Earth. Punishment is a human situation. There is not 'jail' for the spirit as our honest recognition of how we did is more than sufficient. Putting yourself in the position of judge doesn't seem to help, since the relevant reactive attitudes -- like guilt -- themselves seem to make sense only if we believe that we're free. If we're judging how we did, we have to believe that we could have done better or worse. You are right but I should have used a better word than judge. Maybe better to just say that you are the only one who would feel bad for not doing better and therefor feel that you need to do better next time. There is no judgement other than an honest review and there is no punishment other than your feelings about how you did such as guilt or remorse or just wanting to make, whatever you may have fell short of, right again. As Epictetus said "Men are disturbed not by the things that happen, but by their opinion of the things that happen". It's always our thoughts of things that matter and not the thing itself, spiritually speaking. IMHO. If I may ask, what is it that you teach? Or are you on the administrative side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World Citizen Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 On 12/15/2018 at 5:28 PM, ohio said: So, if World Citizen is becoming a sinner; is he trending up or down? Ha! Definitely trending up. Although trending down has it's upside as well. Sinning is fun as hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World Citizen Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 22 hours ago, Troll said: Namaste 🙏 👍 Namaste. Was afraid you were a screwed up Atheist/Anarchist LOL In such a belief system, you should find it easy to understand why spiritual beings would seek out organizations that claim to have better knowledge or understanding of that 'love power' or 'goodness' everyone finds so elusive ...and as that is the stated goal of most religions (to bring one closer to god or good), you need not judge anyone as 'less enlightened' if they continue to follow familial traditions or any certain religion. Definitely agree with this. It is so damn hard to remember though. As for being spiritual, it is easy to understand seeking out organized religion. Just not for me personally. I have way too many questions that the answers to just do not make sense to me so I stay away from it. The dogma gets me and the way it can be used as a instrument of prejudice and hate by some. But definitely to each their own and I would hope nothing but what's best for them spiritually. No matter what actions they may or may not do or what they believe. The caveat is that those religions are 'manmade organizations', and YES they are not only fallible, but corrupted with the 'original sin' which you noted. You might find it easier to view 'original sin' as the Yang to the Ying....or the flipside of your choice, when you make the wrong or 'bad' one....and no matter how much you believe you are perfect at birth, you were born within the 'human condition' which WILL make some 'wrong choices'...…...just like any religious organization (or group of men, which can exponentially multiply those mistakes when groups don't get it right). I wouldn't say that we are perfect at birth necessarily because if we were there would be no need to come here and live a life. I would say that there is more for us to experience and hopefully learn from. I wouldn't say that if one person has much more to learn than another person, that person is better or worse or have any value judgement about it at all. The term 'original sin' as used in Monotheism in the Western culture is unique, as I understand it. The story of Adam and Eve, as you may know, is a borrowed mythology and remade to suit the people of that time and place and the tribes that borrowed it created the original sin angle. It is the only mythology where this is so. I totally welcome information that would correct me if I am wrong. I can't think of another people or culture where original sin was used in their mythology. Religions strike me as 'groups' seeking enlightenment thru their own path, history, tradition, and ceremony.... Well said. And it is a way where we can express and relate to the transcendent nature of our experience. This sounded much better before I said it. Lol Sure many follow the tradition and ceremony for appearances and inclusion, and are not truly spiritual people, but today it is more likely to find people that believe they are catholic/jewish/pick your religion, that act spiritually based on those upbringings but do not attend church/temple/etc. Your relationship with your religion is very much like the relationship you describe with the world.... and what you put in. 100% agree and will say that the 'universe' (for a lack of a better term) is a gigantic mirror reflecting back what you emit. Yes I find this stuff interesting too....LOLOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 On 12/15/2018 at 8:28 PM, ohio said: So, if World Citizen is becoming a sinner; is he trending up or down? @World Citizen is trending down, down to where there is nothing below, the true bottom. But he'll be lifted up to impossible heights finally. It's just like Beethoven's 5th. In the 3rd, it's being driven down into the dirt, into the tomb. But in the 4th, the dark C minor is replaced by the bright C major, and the whole thing is transformed and takes on a new life and is driven impossibly upwards, and if you're not careful, it'll pick you up too and carry you with it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 On 12/17/2018 at 3:53 PM, World Citizen said: To say that what you should do or ought to do is determined by society is a view that I think is very, very popular these days but gravely mistaken. I could give an independent argument for that, but consider what you've say about being helpful. Presumably you think that you ought to do what's helpful and that you ought to refrain from doing what's unhelpful. And presumably you think that that's true regardless of what society happens to think. I think we may agree on a lot more than we think, because you appeal to the virtues of wisdom, compassion, kindness, and unselfishness (and to their corresponding vices). And I believe that what makes an action morally right is that it expresses the virtues and not the vices. I would just add that you ought to do what the virtuous person would do in the circumstances, not what most people in your society would do. So maybe we agree at bottom. I don't know. I still don't know why punishment makes no sense in the spiritual world. You're either already virtuous, in which case there'd be no explanation of why you'd screw up here on Earth or why you'd be here in the first place to learn the virtues. Or you're not, in which case you wouldn't be in a position to accurately judge your foibles or failures. Part of the appeal of placing the judge outside ourselves is that he can lift us up; he can do for us what we otherwise wouldn't be able to do for ourselves, because we're fucked up. If I'm fucked up, then I'm in no position to make reliable judgments of better or worse. I teach a bit, but I'd rather not say what I teach, because it makes me feel safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 On 12/16/2018 at 7:25 PM, Troll said: Don't get too crazy out there.... 😄...but have fun No, no, no. These days I drink a cup of spiced wine for courage, and then I try my best to keep my daughter from hurting herself without hurting myself at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 On 12/16/2018 at 4:23 PM, World Citizen said: No I am not an Atheist. I would say I am a spiritualist and that we are spirits having an human experience. Definitely not a Polytheist (although I would say that we are all Gods as stated in the Koran or Gods in the making). I would say that I believe in something, and any description of that something is a waste of time as it would be far above my pay grade (spiritually speaking). I'll just say that love is an actual power but where that power comes from I do not know. The idea of God as it is thought of in the bible is a very simplistic (and there is nothing wrong with being simplistic in regards to God) and even absurd to me. But that's just me and I try like hell to not judge people for their beliefs and actions. Sometimes I am successful in not judging and other times not so much but I will continue to try. Damn hard thing to do imo. That's consistent with Christianity also. Scripture says that we're made in God's image, but of course the Bible also says that God can't be seen and has no form. The idea, I think, is that we have a greater share of His properties than other creatures do. We have a greater share of wisdom and goodness. And we are for that reason little gods who can take the perfections we've been given and develop them. And if we are naturally immortal, then we can perfect ourselves forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World Citizen Posted December 19, 2018 Report Share Posted December 19, 2018 On 12/17/2018 at 6:43 PM, Belly Bob said: To say that what you should do or ought to do is determined by society is a view that I think is very, very popular these days but gravely mistaken. I could give an independent argument for that, but consider what you've say about being helpful. Presumably you think that you ought to do what's helpful and that you ought to refrain from doing what's unhelpful. And presumably you think that that's true regardless of what society happens to think. Not what you ought to do or ought not to do. If one would rather be unhelpful then that is up to them if that is what they want. Always up to the individual. But the individual should understand that they are going to reap what they sow, regardless of what society says. I'll expand on the 'helpful' angle a bit. It all comes down to aligning yourself with your higher self. This is accomplished by paying attention to the gifts we have been given while we are here, such as our feelings. That feeling you get when you do something bad or hurt another person is all something we can relate to right? Same with that good feeling you get when you are kind to people and we can all relate to what that feels like. The bad feeling lowers your frequency and the good feelings increase it. The helpful and unhelpful does just that, it either raises or lowers your frequency. That is how we create our circumstances and experiences and how the universe mirrors back to us what we give out. Anger, hatred, etc, lower your frequency and bring to you exactly that lower type of frequency experience. And the opposite is true, love, forgiveness, etc, raises it and brings you experiences that are of a higher frequency. It must be true forgiveness and true love in order for good experiences to manifest themselves and that is a major problem in our world. People have been conditioned and taught wrong and that is why we are in the situation we find ourselves. Love is conditional and forgiveness is too difficult much of the time. We love only those who love us and that is fairly easy to do but extremely hard to love a neighbor and even more so a 'perceived' enemy but that is what is necessary. I think we may agree on a lot more than we think, because you appeal to the virtues of wisdom, compassion, kindness, and unselfishness (and to their corresponding vices). And I believe that what makes an action morally right is that it expresses the virtues and not the vices. I would just add that you ought to do what the virtuous person would do in the circumstances, not what most people in your society would do. So maybe we agree at bottom. I don't know. I think we agree on a great deal and much of any disagreement stems from my inability to articulate my thoughts better. I still don't know why punishment makes no sense in the spiritual world. You're either already virtuous, in which case there'd be no explanation of why you'd screw up here on Earth or why you'd be here in the first place to learn the virtues. Or you're not, in which case you wouldn't be in a position to accurately judge your foibles or failures. Lol. I don't know why punishment would make sense. In spirit, I don't believe there is any room for punishment. If you felt that you did not accomplish what you wanted to while here that would be enough of a punishment or rather incentive to do better next time. I just can't imagine what a punishment would look like. I guess if you really screwed up while here your frequency that you have created for yourself would put you in a less that optimal position when you come down to try again. So that would a kind of result or punishment but that is more a consequence imo. Part of the appeal of placing the judge outside ourselves is that he can lift us up; he can do for us what we otherwise wouldn't be able to do for ourselves, because we're fucked up. If I'm fucked up, then I'm in no position to make reliable judgments of better or worse. I don't understand how a judge can lift us up and do what we can't do for ourselves. I wouldn't say we are fucked up at all. Spiritually speaking. Until we know what we do not yet know, I wouldn't consider that being fucked up any more than I would consider a small child who is still learning to be fucked up. Who else is in better position to say if you learned what you wanted to learn more than yourself? I teach a bit, but I'd rather not say what I teach, because it makes me feel safer. Understood. I want you to fell safe Belly Bob. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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