Second best team in Norcal?

[ThunderRam]

22 hours ago, Mjd33 said:

Lost to grant by 35. So cannot accept they were the 7th best team in the entire country. Schedule doesn't warrant that ranking.

Doesn't matter whether you accept it or not. They were ranked quite highly, so he's not wrong. Hell, we all can debate the merit of who won the Mythical title each and every year, still doesn't change who is credited with winning it.

22 hours ago, Mjd33 said:

Didn't play dls who beat them by an average of 30 points the two prior years. Blowing out Oceanside to me is a nothing burger. We will never know how good that team was .... all speculation.

I don't understand why you think that what happened in the past has any bearing on the future. 2012 and 2013 has nothing to do with 2014. Lots of circumstances change. Totally ridiculous argument.

BTW, everything your typing is speculation too.

22 hours ago, Mjd33 said:

The 2014 Folsom team returned the same team from the year prior .... if they played dls why would it of been different? Dls was legit in 14.... were not talking the dls of 16 here. 

That's not true. Jonah Williams wasn't on those 12 and 13 teams. Folsom's biggest issue in those games, offensively, was not being able protect Jake Browning and give him time to sling it.

In the 2012 game, Austin Hooper was a 1 man wrecking crew against an overmatched Sophomore in Cody Creason. But 2 season's later, Creason developed into a very good D1 FBS prospect that made 4 starts at RT for the Arizona Wildcats as a freshman in 2016. Meanwhile Jonah Williams was the starter at RT from day 1 for the Crimson Tide, who made an appearance in the National title game. You don't think he'd have been a huge help blocking the likes of Devin Asiasi?? I would have liked his chances in representing well in that matchup. With bookend D1 FBS tackles protecting an even better Jake Browning, that's just one of several big differences from 2012 and 2013. But go ahead and dismiss that all you want.

Lastly, Folsom's 2014 defense was far better than it was in 2012 and 2013. Anybody that followed Folsom knows this. Again, having the Williams and Creason tandem on the DL really helped in that regard. They were a big and physical bunch. In the end, I believe that 2014 team had 12 or 13 players go on to play D1. The 2012 and 2013 teams certainly didn't have that.

To say that nothing was different wreaks of ignorance. Having said that, I'm not also saying that means that Folsom would have won a hypothetical matchup with DLS. We'll never know. But even many of the biased DLS guys have acknowledged that it would have been a different game than the previous two.

I'm not a Folsom apologist or homer at all. In fact, I often get accused by Folsom fan of being anti-Folsom on this board and on the NorCal boards. Contrary to some opinions, I don't believe the 2014 team was the best ever out of the Sac-Joaquin section. I've seen several teams that were better. But I still give the 2014 team a lot of credit and firmly believe that they could have given DLS all they could handle had they played. IMO, they would have had a good shot to win that game. What happened in 2012 and 2013 has absolutely no bearing. If it did, then I guess we declare SJB a winner over DLS in a hypothetical matchup this season based upon what happened last December, right?

If you believe that DLS was better in 2014 and would have won, I can't prove you wrong. But claiming that nothing was different from the 2 previous seasons is and can be proven wrong. Furthermore, using the results from a previous matchup is almost always a flawed tactic. A myriad of examples can be cited in support. We've even seen blowout results reversed in the same season no less. It proves nothing.

[954gator]

7 hours ago, Pops said:

2010.   #7 nationally

2012 and 2013.  Top 50

2014.   #2 nationally

in NJ, they'd be known as the flag-bearer

This is CP at it's best.   Completely ridiculous.  

[Pops]

1 hour ago, 954gator said:

This is CP at it's best.   Completely ridiculous.  

Why?

because a guy from FL that doesn't know anything about Folsom '10 or '14 and only that they lost to DLS in '12/13 diesnt think that sounds right?

without research, tell me what you know about either team....

your post is a good example for why CP is  relevant to these sorts of discussions

 

[954gator]

2 hours ago, Pops said:

Why?

because a guy from FL that doesn't know anything about Folsom '10 or '14 and only that they lost to DLS in '12/13 diesnt think that sounds right?

without research, tell me what you know about either team....

your post is a good example for why CP is  relevant to these sorts of discussions

 

Lol ok.   In 2010 Folsom lost by 30+ and did not play anyone outside of CA.   In 2014 they blasted all of their opponents, and again did not play anyone outside of California.   So, I ask you, what makes Folsom so special that their undefeated season in 2014 was soo much better than some others in other states?  I'm not even trying to say how good they actually were...I'm just pointing out how ridiculously biased Calpreps is in placing them there.   I understand you don't see it, but others do.   It's ok.   So I'm guessing Norcal had the #1 and 2 teams in the nation in 2014 then right?  Surprising.

 

 

[Sammyswordsman]

12 hours ago, Sammyswordsman said:

 

"Reputation is worthless, trial is best. Many have good repute who are untried." - Theognis of Megara (6th Century B.C.)

 

 

My new sig line cuz it applies to so many teams I despise. LOL

[Pops]

14 minutes ago, 954gator said:

I'm not even trying to say how good they actually were...I'm just pointing out how ridiculously biased Calpreps is in placing them there.   

 

Let me clarify your meaning --

r u saying (as I infer your words above) that a) you don't know how good Folsom was but b) CP is clearly biased by regarding them so highly

seems to me a contradiction, no?

ill say this with conviction just to touch on Folsom's SOS because you East coast guys love talking about "OOS" when you could fit 5 or 20 if your states in CA or TX -- Folsom unquestionably had the strongest SOS of any 16-0 team that put 16 running clocks in their opponents

Before you dismiss that, consider JC for an MNC 2 years earlier for beating #446 by 30, #901 by 18, and #1241 by 19.  Those were the only top 3,000 opponents they played.

folsom didn't play a nationally elite team (again, their expected game vs DLS was cancelled right before the season began), but put running clocks in everyone (including a 61-point win over #50) and the merged list of top opponents with JC and Folsom looks like:

folsom folsom folsom folsom

jc

folsom folsom folsom folsom folsom folsom

so, which ranking seems more suspect -- the humans giving JC the '12 MNC or CP rating Folsom #2 in '14

and don't dismiss my remarks solely for being CP #s -- they're close enough for the point (Folsom had the top 3 and 10 of top 11 opponents vs a team that I don't remember you having any angst over an even higher rating) -- they played a better schedule and dominated every opponent more convincingly 

 

 

 

[954gator]

1 hour ago, Pops said:

Let me clarify your meaning --

r u saying (as I infer your words above) that a) you don't know how good Folsom was but b) CP is clearly biased by regarding them so highly

seems to me a contradiction, no?

Nope simply pattern recognition.  Same thing every year.   

ill say this with conviction just to touch on Folsom's SOS because you East coast guys love talking about "OOS" when you could fit 5 or 20 if your states in CA or TX -- Folsom unquestionably had the strongest SOS of any 16-0 team that put 16 running clocks in their opponents

Before you dismiss that, consider JC for an MNC 2 years earlier for beating #446 by 30, #901 by 18, and #1241 by 19.  Those were the only top 3,000 opponents they played.

folsom didn't play a nationally elite team (again, their expected game vs DLS was cancelled right before the season began), but put running clocks in everyone (including a 61-point win over #50) 

Find me a team in the history of Calprep rankings (not from Cali) ranked in the top 50 nationally with a 60 pt loss.  Good luck with that!  Well at least you're right about them not playing an elite team.

so, which ranking seems more suspect -- the humans giving JC the '12 MNC or CP rating Folsom #2 in '14

If human polls were putting multiple La teams in the top 5-10 every year, you'd hear my making the same comments about them, but they're not.  

and don't dismiss my remarks solely for being CP #s -- they're close enough for the point 

Your opinion, you use CP in basically every point in your argument.   You say they had the toughest schedule then say they played no elite teams and put a running clock on all 16 teams.   I'm sick of people thinking their state is so much  better than the rest, and what drives me even more nuts is when Norcal teams finally step out of their bubble they have "their worst team in 10 yrs". Give me break.  And before you say..."well I never said California is by far the best state with the best teams", by defending CPs rankings, you essentially are saying Cali is better than the rest.  Since according to CP, they are...EVERY YEAR.   

 

 

 

 

[Pops]

24 minutes ago, 954gator said:

 

Tough to quote you back in iPhone when you respond within my quotes so sorry for bad format, but.....

"pattern recognition" -- LOL.  I recognize a pattern that you are outraged at every imperfection at CP and ignore the more numerous ones committed by human pollsters.  I get it -- no team in the country is set up for success as well every year by human polls as STA.  Lost 3 games the previous year?  No big deal, let's start them at #1 because they have 12 D1 WRs.  Oops. Lost a couple more games they shouldn't.  Oh well, they've got 12 freshman with offers, let's start them #1 again.  If STA can ever have an undefeated season, they're a shoe in for MNC.  A comparative analysis among unbeatens?  Nah, let's just keep same order as we started and drop teams if they lose.  Utterly ridiculous.

props for a creative ask on O-side, but, as I said, Folsom's win was the biggest in CA state championship history, their WB set national TD records, they had 16 running clocks -- this was a freaky team that had lots of unique accomplishments.  And, maybe you could offer top 100 instead of top 50 since they're at #50 on the nose which might be a ceiling for 61-point losers even if they were 14-0 and SoCal D1 champs outside of that game.  O-side did beat MV by 17 (you may remember MV having a better record against DBP than STA) and MV beat Vista Marietta by 11 (a much better VM team than will travel to GA this year to play CQ).  You can argue #50 if you want but to just put your head in the ground and say it's inconceivable for you to consider they're 50, acknowledge that they were a fairly well vetted team (much better than STA's typical championship opponents) and they got absolutely and utterly destroyed.

i know that team way better than you but one thing we agree on is that we don't know how good they were.  Just shaking my head at how you attribute "pattern recognition" to your conclusion they weren't that good.  

 

[ECHS05]

The entire problem with this argument with Pops... is he uses CalPreps to justify his argument. That doesnt do anything.

[AztecPadre]

18 hours ago, ECHS05 said:

^ 

This.

Pops wrote #2 in 2014... how does he do that without cringing.

That 2014 team would have running clocked every team in ga. Real talk. 

[AztecPadre]

12 hours ago, 954gator said:

This is CP at it's best.   Completely ridiculous.  

Easy echs you just did threads praising cp for their scaling and now it doesn't work again cuz Cali is still too high. Can't have it both ways.

[954gator]

8 hours ago, Pops said:

Tough to quote you back in iPhone when you respond within my quotes so sorry for bad format, but.....

"pattern recognition" -- LOL.  I recognize a pattern that you are outraged at every imperfection at CP and ignore the more numerous ones committed by human pollsters.  I get it -- no team in the country is set up for success as well every year by human polls as STA.  Lost 3 games the previous year?  No big deal, let's start them at #1 because they have 12 D1 WRs.  Oops. Lost a couple more games they shouldn't.  Oh well, they've got 12 freshman with offers, let's start them #1 again.  If STA can ever have an undefeated season, they're a shoe in for MNC.  A comparative analysis among unbeatens?  Nah, let's just keep same order as we started and drop teams if they lose.  Utterly ridiculous.

props for a creative ask on O-side, but, as I said, Folsom's win was the biggest in CA state championship history, their WB set national TD records, they had 16 running clocks -- this was a freaky team that had lots of unique accomplishments.  And, maybe you could offer top 100 instead of top 50 since they're at #50 on the nose which might be a ceiling for 61-point losers even if they were 14-0 and SoCal D1 champs outside of that game.  O-side did beat MV by 17 (you may remember MV having a better record against DBP than STA) and MV beat Vista Marietta by 11 (a much better VM team than will travel to GA this year to play CQ).  You can argue #50 if you want but to just put your head in the ground and say it's inconceivable for you to consider they're 50, acknowledge that they were a fairly well vetted team (much better than STA's typical championship opponents) and they got absolutely and utterly destroyed.

i know that team way better than you but one thing we agree on is that we don't know how good they were.  Just shaking my head at how you attribute "pattern recognition" to your conclusion they weren't that good.  

 

The Pattern I recognize is Cali teams heavily out numbering the rest of the country in Cpreps rankings.  

As far as STA, they're not really relevant to this discussion. Just imagine if I sat here every year defending a team like 2015 Viera or 2016 Plant (assuming they were top 25ish) when A...they had no elite wins, and B they got smoked in the finals?  Sure they were  decent teams, but STA challenges themselves OOS to compensate.    Lately STA's 7A playoffs haven't been the most competitive, but  the only real connection we have between Cali and Fl 7A are state champ DLS' two losses to STA and Lakeland (neither made 7A final) and Carson's loss to 7-5 Osceola (who was in the 7A class at the time).  These are the only real connections Cali has to 7A.  Yet I still understand that other than STA there aren't any elite teams.  

 If you look at my post I never said how good or bad 2014 Folsom is (2010 is a diff story).  This is the most important thing you need to realize.   It's about how ironic it is that in 2014 Norcal had the best two teams in the country.  You criticize JC all the time, yet in all of our CP arguments you never accept the possibility that other teams in the country might just have schedules that are a bit tougher than Cpreps gives credit for, or that other teams might be as or more deserving than some of the Cali teams.  

Every state has good years, but not every single year!  C'mon man I know you understand what I'm saying.

[Guest LOSer]

8 hours ago, Pops said:

I get it -- no team in the country is set up for success as well every year by human polls as STA.

Or they have earned such success.

But we know that you're not going to support this claim. Instead you'll just make a statement and expect us to believe it.

This is a program that was #1 in the polls for 31 straight weeks in 2008-09 then lost one game by 8 points on the road in the state semifinals and was dropped out of every top 25.

[Guest LOSer]

8 hours ago, Pops said:

Lost 3 games the previous year?  No big deal, let's start them at #1 because they have 12 D1 WRs.

The only year that they were preseason #1 after a 3-loss season was 2014 when they went 14-1 and were very likely one of the best teams in the country. In fact they Folsom'd their schedule with 12 running clocks out of those 14 wins.

But we know that you won't apply your standards evenly across the board.

 

[Pops]

25 minutes ago, 954gator said:

C'mon man I know you understand what I'm saying.

I know you're trying to be sincere and understand what you're saying but doesn't mean you're rigjt

If you analyzed CP v humans, CA is not the most favored state, even among the Big 5 (that's enough of a hint) -- you didn't analyze, you just assume and then fall in with the "CALpreps" guys that happen to be 90% from SE, and mostly from rivals or nhsfb days, and resent not being favored by a human who much more clearly had a bias their way.  Also, NorCal is treated about like FL and GA at CP, and I don't whine about it's use, but do sometimes point out the favoritism (before playoffs statted in '09, DLS was 9th in CA and the only NorCal team in top 25 right before NorCal went 5-0 in Open (not all DLS and won D1 game for 2nd time in 3 years).  It's flawed. It it's a way way better option than to just let echs tell us that etowah is really a top 100 team and that Grayson is better than IMG and that GA had 5 top 25 teams last year

you draw too broad of conclusions from STA and Lakeland games -- Lakeland was DLS's 3rd loss in last 4 games and they were tied or trailed 1st 3 NorCal teams they played that year at half.  STA is a different story, that I won't get into, but I suppose the state of WA and the city of Clovis can also claim they own DLS.  

[Guest LOSer]

8 hours ago, Pops said:

Oops. Lost a couple more games they shouldn't.  Oh well, they've got 12 freshman with offers, let's start them #1 again.

You must be referencing 2016 here but, as usual, got your facts wrong since they only lost one single game in 2015. Not a "couple'  by even your loose standards.

[Pops]

Just now, LOSer said:

You must be referencing 2016 here but, as usual, got your facts wrong since they only lost one single game in 2015. Not a "couple'  by even your loose standards.

I was generalizing a "since 2010"

[Guest LOSer]

8 hours ago, Pops said:

If STA can ever have an undefeated season, they're a shoe in for MNC.  A comparative analysis among unbeatens?  Nah, let's just keep same order as we started

STA has been a victim of such poll mentality far more than they've been a beneficiary.

You just lack the recall and/or the actual experience to know that.

In fact, they weren't preseason #1 in either of their MNC seasons. In 2008, PrepNation moved them to #1 based solely on performance but every other poll waited until severely overrated Trinity lost a game. In 2010, they started #36 at Rivals and only lost out to South Panola for the very reasons you're whining about above.

[Pops]

7 minutes ago, LOSer said:

Or they have earned such success.

But we know that you're not going to support this claim. Instead you'll just make a statement and expect us to believe it.

This is a program that was #1 in the polls for 31 straight weeks in 2008-09 then lost one game by 8 points on the road in the state semifinals and was dropped out of every top 25.

STA has t come close to earning their preseason ranks every year -- they're #1 or top 5 every year and have lost games they shouldn't have every year since '10 but get a hall pass due to D1 counts/ recruits

btw, I'm not suggesting this is a wrong approach -- I'd start them there every year  also (although would then like to think I'd be much more dynamic going forward than any human poll has proven to be)

[Pops]

8 minutes ago, LOSer said:

The only year that they were preseason #1 after a 3-loss season was 2014 when they went 14-1 and were very likely one of the best teams in the country. In fact they Folsom'd their schedule with 12 running clocks out of those 14 wins.

But we know that you won't apply your standards evenly across the board.

 

Again, was generalizing -- 2 losses, 3 losses, #1, #2,...... point still valid 

[Guest LOSer]

9 hours ago, Pops said:

You can argue #50 if you want but to just put your head in the ground and say it's inconceivable for you to consider they're 50, acknowledge that they were a fairly well vetted team (much better than STA's typical championship opponents) and they got absolutely and utterly destroyed.

I can't help but notice all of the instances where you just assert things (in fact, just make statements) and then just let them stand without any support.

These are some of Oceanside's results that year.

#111 Helix (La Mesa, CA) (20-13)

#181 Edison (Fresno, CA) (37-22)

#306 Mission Hills (San Marcos, CA) (38-31)

#613 St. Augustine (San Diego, CA) (34-28)

#949 Carlsbad (CA) (28-14)

#1837 El Camino (Oceanside, CA) (26-7)

#8659 San Pasqual (Escondido, CA) (42-23)

Pop thinks this is a "fairly well-vetted" team because they beat Mission Viejo.

Well, this is who Mission Viejo beat. These are their 5 best wins.

#121 Vista Murrieta (Murrieta, CA) (21-10)

#239 Tesoro (Rancho Santa Margarita, CA) (12-10)

#257 Great Oak (Temecula, CA) (41-36)

#324 Rancho Cucamonga (CA) (38-35)

#340 El Toro (Lake Forest, CA) (24-17)

[Pops]

5 minutes ago, LOSer said:

STA has been a victim of such poll mentality far more than they've been a beneficiary.

You just lack the recall and/or the actual experience to know that.

In fact, they weren't preseason #1 in either of their MNC seasons. In 2008, PrepNation moved them to #1 based solely on performance but every other poll waited until severely overrated Trinity lost a game. In 2010, they started #36 at Rivals and only lost out to South Panola for the very reasons you're whining about above.

I get this, human polls tend to work on a lag so a team like STA would have been undervalued until earning an MNC but have since been perennially overvalued (or underperformed, take your pick -- in any event I believe you've finished lower than you started since MNCs

analogy to DLS -- DLS was definitely overvalued from '04-'08 because those teams weren't as good as the teams that preceded them and vice versa '10-16

[Guest LOSer]

10 minutes ago, Pops said:

I was generalizing a "since 2010"

STA has only been preseason #1 twice since then.

2014 and 2016.

They were one of the handful of best teams in both years.

In neither year did they lost "a couple" of games they shouldn't have lost.

[Pops]

2 minutes ago, LOSer said:

I can't help but notice all of the instances where you just assert things (in fact, just make statements) and then just let them stand without any support.

These are some of Oceanside's results that year.

#111 Helix (La Mesa, CA) (20-13)

#181 Edison (Fresno, CA) (37-22)

#306 Mission Hills (San Marcos, CA) (38-31)

#613 St. Augustine (San Diego, CA) (34-28)

#949 Carlsbad (CA) (28-14)

#1837 El Camino (Oceanside, CA) (26-7)

#8659 San Pasqual (Escondido, CA) (42-23)

Pop thinks this is a "fairly well-vetted" team because they beat Mission Viejo.

Well, this is who Mission Viejo beat. These are their 5 best wins.

#121 Vista Murrieta (Murrieta, CA) (21-10)

#239 Tesoro (Rancho Santa Margarita, CA) (12-10)

#257 Great Oak (Temecula, CA) (41-36)

#324 Rancho Cucamonga (CA) (38-35)

#340 El Toro (Lake Forest, CA) (24-17)

I'm not going to do my opponents work for him

ive got to go to work

welcome back

[Guest LOSer]

8 minutes ago, Pops said:

STA has t come close to earning their preseason ranks every year -- they're #1 or top 5 every year and have lost games they shouldn't have every year since '10 but get a hall pass due to D1 counts/ recruits

They earn such distinction by being one of the best teams.

This escapes you far too often.