Trump calling out Germany for their Russian ties

[Bormio]

Germany is one of the leading economic powers of the world and a leading Western democracy.  They need to fulfill their responsibilities for the world’s military needs and stop letting them use their history as an excuse to avoid them.

[concha]

1 hour ago, Rufus69 said:

conch...I said conch...did I read you right?

You want Germany to have a large military fighting force?

Amigo....how old are you....LOL.

Rufus>>

They had 4,500 main battle tanks during the Cold War.  I don't recall the panzers parading down Park Avenue.

And you did not read me right.

In your anti-Trump brain spasm (and general leftist intellectual dishonesty), you misread a desire to see an "ally" live up to obligations and at least be able to defend itself against a battalion of Girl Scouts for wanting to see the rise of the Fourth Reich.

[concha]

1 hour ago, HSFBfan said:

Ww2 was possible because the reparations that America and its allies put in place were so harsh that the people of Germany were fed up and Hitler gave them someone to blame. America destroyed their military and you can say rightly so after ww1 and it led to nothing but bad things. If it wasnt for pearl harbor idk if Germany would have ever beat Russia but it might have been easier. Let's thank Japan for waking up the sleeping giant

The French, in particular, who lost virtually an entire generation of young men in the Great War, demanded harsh treatment of Germany.  The French and British of the late 30s were not mentally prepared to stand up to Hitler. They fooled themselves into believing a madman and even when they had the opportunity to end WWII quickly and easily, they hesitated, wavered and opened themselves up to defeat (look up the Phoney War, also known as the Sitzkrieg).

[HSFBfan]

3 minutes ago, concha said:

The French, in particular, who lost virtually an entire generation of young men in the Great War, demanded harsh treatment of Germany.  The French and British of the late 30s were not mentally prepared to stand up to Hitler. They fooled themselves into believing a madman and even when they had the opportunity to end WWII quickly and easily, they hesitated, wavered and opened themselves up to defeat (look up the Phoney War, also known as the Sitzkrieg).

I'll check it out. No Britain and France got virtually ran over in ww2. Without Japan bombing pearl harbor Europe might be completely different today. Idk if Hitler had the resources to do what he wanted to do and I think his generals would have gotten very tired of him considering a couple of them tired to kill him. But France and England were really no match for Hitler and his army. 

[Horsefly]

The world is changing and evolving with and around us.  Since trump came on the scene, European countries (UK not included) are developing their own military coalition, the Permanent Structure Cooperation (PESCO) to redusce their dependency on uS led efforts.  These latest acts may/will push them closer to this coalition

[concha]

8 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

I'll check it out. No Britain and France got virtually ran over in ww2. Without Japan bombing pearl harbor Europe might be completely different today. Idk if Hitler had the resources to do what he wanted to do and I think his generals would have gotten very tired of him considering a couple of them tired to kill him. But France and England were really no match for Hitler and his army. 

They did.

Because they played into Hitler's hands.

While the Wermacht and Luftwaffe were off pounding the shit out of Poland, Hitler left his western border virtually defenseless. He gambled on the French and the British not making any serious aggressive moves in the West - and they didn't.  Had they shown resolve and done so, they could have moved into Germany's industrial heartland with relative ease.  No industry means no war machine.  Taking the war to the industrial centers of the Germany means no blitzkrieg.

 

[HSFBfan]

19 minutes ago, concha said:

They did.

Because they played into Hitler's hands.

While the Wermacht and Luftwaffe were off pounding the shit out of Poland, Hitler left his western border virtually defenseless. He gambled on the French and the British not making any serious aggressive moves in the West - and they didn't.  Had they shown resolve and done so, they could have moved into Germany's industrial heartland with relative ease.  No industry means no war machine.  Taking the war to the industrial centers of the Germany means no blitzkrieg.

 

Very true. Hitler would have western Europe more so than he did. He had allies in Italy spain etc. Spains leader was a huge supporter of the nazi regime. If you believe the stories he had allies in south America as well. 

[Hardcore Troubador]

1 hour ago, HSFBfan said:

Very true. Hitler would have western Europe more so than he did. He had allies in Italy spain etc. Spains leader was a huge supporter of the nazi regime. If you believe the stories he had allies in south America as well. 

Franco played footsie with the Nazis but was more of a dictator in the traditional sense than some sort of genocidal maniac.  Same with Mussolini.  But it’s lonely as an autocrat and you gotta take friends where you can get them.

Spain was also a very poor country still recovering from a devastating Civil war so couldn’t help the Nazis much even if they wanted to.  Spain’s main virtue was that it surrounded Gibraltar which was a big English naval base at the mouth of the Mediterranean.  But I don’t think Franco ever seriously considered openly siding (or even providing major covert support) to the Nazis.  Though some Spanish “volunteer” troops did fight for the Germans in Russia, such as the Blue Division.

[Hardcore Troubador]

2 hours ago, concha said:

The French, in particular, who lost virtually an entire generation of young men in the Great War, demanded harsh treatment of Germany.  The French and British of the late 30s were not mentally prepared to stand up to Hitler. They fooled themselves into believing a madman and even when they had the opportunity to end WWII quickly and easily, they hesitated, wavered and opened themselves up to defeat (look up the Phoney War, also known as the Sitzkrieg).

Yep, it was laziness, fear, etc.  All mental.  

Most don’t realize that France was widely considered to have the best army in Europe at the time.  They even had better tanks than the Germans at that point as a whole. But the Germans used their armor much more effectively and their blitzkrieg through the Low Countries and Ardennes totally overwhelmed the French and BEF hiding behind the Maginot Line.  The Allies were fighting the last war and coupled with mental paralysis got their asses kicked as a result.

[Hardcore Troubador]

2 hours ago, HSFBfan said:

I'll check it out. No Britain and France got virtually ran over in ww2. Without Japan bombing pearl harbor Europe might be completely different today. Idk if Hitler had the resources to do what he wanted to do and I think his generals would have gotten very tired of him considering a couple of them tired to kill him. But France and England were really no match for Hitler and his army. 

One could argue that Russia would have finished the job themselves, and all of Europe would have fallen under the Iron Curtain.  For a variety of reasons I do not think that the Germans could have defeated the Russians.

Another “what if” was that Hitler could not have declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor.  Many think that in his zealousness to show how good of an ally he was to Japan he shot himself in the foot (later in the head...) Then what?  We would have fought Japan but would have no grounds to fight Germany.  

[BigDrop]

FWIW and for anyone reading this thread:  if you have the opportunity in your lifetime please visit Dachau, 15 or so miles outside of one of Europe’s most beautiful cities, Munich.

The contrast is breathtaking.  And nightmarish.

Many of the actual barracks are still there, preserved with endless halls with murals and scriptural panels that tell the story of Hitler’s evolution along with the prison camp you will be standing in.

Then there is a building with seven foot ceilings, drains on the floor and ceiling spigots which sprayed poison to end thousands of lives.

Who stood where you will be standing.  Or laid on the floor.

Outside are the ovens where bodies were cremated.  They are in the middle of a one acre forest where the ashes were scattered.

Nearby are railroad tracks where trains regularly came to the end of their line with literally hundreds, thousands aboard to be shuffled off, tattooed and assigned a barrack or a cell.

Most Germans lived in fear of camps like Dachau.  If they spoke out they could be shipped there.  After all, before Hitler went after the Jews he sought out and slaughtered anyone who disagreed with him.  He started politically and evolved racially and socially, religiously.

There were many who evolved and believed in him:  they were the ubermensch and, under him, believed they were destined to own and rule the world.

Hitler was charismatic and a performer.  He also came along when many were desperate, perhaps literally starving.  Hitler offered hope and a future.  Many trusted him because they needed to.  And he lied to them.  Endlessly, redundantly telling them what he knew they were desperate to hear.

Those who didn’t sign on cowered in fear.

All of this is told in detail, in English, at Dachau.

Dachau exists to tell a story that is hoped will never happen again.  It is a comment on a nightmare that visitors will never forget.

Whatever is told of WWII can only be fully understood with the experience of Dachau.