Child separation at border saved lot of kids...

[Horsefly]

19 minutes ago, concha said:

If I recall, this is the statement I made that rubbed you the wrong way:

         "In the end they built the strongest and arguably greatest nation on earth."

Cotton wealth did not provide strength.  And I think you'd agree the slavery that cotton required did not make America great.

This is the part I disagree with.  At the time America was economically strong and cotton and slave labor was a contributor.  This has been my only point.  Never claimed we were a military power then. In 1880, the US had the 3d-4th largest GDP in the world behind china, India and close to GB.

[concha]

3 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

This is the part I disagree with.  At the time America was economically strong and cotton and slave labor was a contributor.  This has been my only point.  Never claimed we were a military power then. In 1880, the US had the 3d-4th largest GDP in the world behind china, India and close to GB.

 

"Of course they built the greatest country,  on the backs on one of their other shortcomings according to you...slavery." 

- You

 

You didn't do well. 3rd or 4th? Based on economics alone?

 

[DevilDog]

2 hours ago, concha said:

 

I don't recall anyone saying "it's no big deal". All that has been said is that the Europeans (many behaving in a very un-Christian manner) behaved like men have for millennia. They just happened to be stronger. Guns, Germs & Steel. Aztec ritual sacrifices ranged from the tens of thousands into the hundreds of thousands annually. These are the ancestors of many who want to cross our border (whose ancestors did not historically live in America's Southwest and West).  "Just keeping it 100%".

Mexicans stopped ritually slaughtering people by the tens and hundreds of thousands a year after becoming Christian.  Funny, huh?

And who exactly is "White Jesus"?

White Jesus fueled the mindset of the ones you are so readily to apologize for and other ridiculous overtures.  When you go to Church Sunday I will assure you White Jesus will not be hard to find.  You know who he is and the devastation done in his name and image.  Jeff Sessions and other Right Wing Zealots can help you.  Finally find a brown indigenous person he will have an Aryan Cross taught to him as a symbol of White Jesus.  The one who motivated his oppressor and gave him that Aryan Cross to worship.  Aryans love crosses.  Vikings, Nazis, KKK, Germanians Barbarians and the Romans.  Yeshua damn sure never represented that racist symbol.  Hope this helped.  When did Europe ritually stop slaughtering people.  30 million Indians from India   and 6 million Jews as well. I won't even mention the Tasmanians. Funny why did Christianity not stop them.  And all this happened after the destruction of native Americans.  Damn hypocrites. Stop believing they saved the souls of Brown people with their B.S.

Str8 100.

[Horsefly]

18 minutes ago, concha said:

 

"Of course they built the greatest country,  on the backs on one of their other shortcomings according to you...slavery." 

- You

 

You didn't do well. 3rd or 4th? Based on economics alone?

 

Now we are looping back in arguments.  I followed up with this:

"Wrong, cotton was the major US export at the time and the wealth created set the stage for industrialization."

 

[DevilDog]

1 minute ago, Horsefly said:

Now we are looping back in arguments.  I followed up with this:

"Wrong, cotton was the major US export at the time and the wealth created set the stage for industrialization."

 

The Jeffersonians are a peculiar bunch when dealt reality. Damn the truth just believe them and His-Story

[concha]

16 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

White Jesus fueled the mindset of the ones you are so readily to apologize for and other ridiculous overtures.  When you go to Church Sunday I will assure you White Jesus will not be hard to find.  You know who he is and the devastation done in his name and image.  Jeff Sessions and other Right Wing Zealots can help you.  Finally find a brown indigenous person he will have an Aryan Cross taught to him as a symbol of White Jesus.  The one who motivated his oppressor and gave him that Aryan Cross to worship.  Aryans love crosses.  Vikings, Nazis, KKK, Germanians Barbarians and the Romans.  Yeshua damn sure never represented that racist symbol.  Hope this helped.  

I haven't apologized for anyone.  Again, I simply point out that the people who seem to fuel your grievance existence were little different from even those they oppressed and whom you seem to think were nothing but angels. They just happened to be stronger. A story repeated throughout history before Jesus existed and after. 

And I have no idea who "White Jesus" is, but you seem to have a bit of an obsession with him. The Jesus I was taught never promoted racism nor violence. You purport to defend the folks who want to cross our borders but their ancestors slaughtered people in huge numbers. That was better than Christianity?

Heaven forbid you turn any critical eye to anyone other than the evil European. 

 

[concha]

4 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

The Jeffersonians are a peculiar bunch when dealt reality. Damn the truth just believe them and His-Story

You didn't used to talk like this. Methinks someone read an "interesting" book or walked through the doors of an interesting religious institution.

[DevilDog]

11 minutes ago, concha said:

I haven't apologized for anyone.  Again, I simply point out that the people who seem to fuel your grievance existence were little different from even those they oppressed and whom you seem to think were nothing but angels. They happened to be stronger. A story repeated throughout history before Jesus existed and after. 

And I have no idea who "White Jesus" is, but you seem to have a bit of an obsession with him. The Jesus I was taught never promoted racism nor violence. You purport to defend the folks who want to cross our borders but their ancestors slaughtered people in huge numbers. That was better than Christianity?

Heaven forbid you turn any critical eye to anyone other than the evil European. 

 

Was the founders Christian?  Did they promote racism and project violence on POC?. Were the Pilgrims Christian and did they do the same?  You got me twisted sir.  You can't sell that B.S. to me. With all due respect of course. So if your so called Fathers were in fact violent racist promotion their faith above others.  When did their Son's change yet constantly refer me back to those damn racist.

[concha]

10 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

Now we are looping back in arguments.  I followed up with this:

"Wrong, cotton was the major US export at the time and the wealth created set the stage for industrialization."

 

If you want to make the argument that America would never have become a world economic, militray and industrial power without cotton, then have at it. Cotton fueled cotton mills. Not steel. Not railroads... In fact, the industrial explosion in America occurred overwhelmingly POST Civil War.

 

Queue some eye-rolling post about Yeshua and White Jesus and Jeffersonians blah blah blah from DD.

[DevilDog]

9 minutes ago, concha said:

You didn't used to talk like this. Methinks someone read an "interesting" book or walked through the doors of an interesting religious institution.

I haven't read anything more than b4.  I just recognize B.S. and not afraid to point it out. No peculiar institution. Just an arrogant well read Marine.  Remember if I am suppose to get over the past then my bringing up someone else's it shouldn't matter. LOL. Me thinks you want me to fall for whimsical fanfare.  We still good homie.

[Horsefly]

2 minutes ago, concha said:

If you want to make the argument that America would never have become a world economic, militray and industrial power without cotton, then have at it. Cotton fueled cotton mills. Not steel. Not railroads... In fact, the industrial explosion in America occurred overwhelmingly POST Civil War.

 

Queue some eye-rolling post about Yeshua and White Jesus and Jeffersonians blah blah blah from DD.

So you think Northerners didn't benefit from the cotton trade? Of course they did, the wealth was national.  I already provided the excerpts from the article.

 

 

[concha]

14 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

Was the founders Christian?  Did they promote racism. Were the Pilgrims Christian and did they do the same.  You got me twisted sir.  You can't sell that B.S. to me. With all due respect of course. So if your so called Fathers were when did their Son's change yet constantly refer me back to those damn racist.

They drank water too. Water drinkers must all be racist.

I am capable to recognize that people can claim to be Christian and do very un-Christian things. Are you capable of recognizing that simple truth?

Columbus wasn't given patronage to sail west in order to spread Christianity. He wasn't funded by the Church. He was funded by greedy ass monarchs who wanted to cut out the typically Muslim middle-man from the spice trade.  Slaves were taken to the New World because A) they were made available by Arabs and other Black Africans and, B) economics.

[concha]

3 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

So you think Northerners didn't benefit from the cotton trade? Of course they did, the wealth was national.  I already provided the excerpts from the article.

 

I have already acknowledged that there was some influence on the North.

I pointed to America as strongest and greatest.

That did not occur until after the Civil War and arguably not until around the time of WW I.

And even Civil War and earlier,  the guys with the cotton lost. Not so powerful. Not so great.

[DevilDog]

5 minutes ago, concha said:

They drank water too. Water drinkers must all be racist.

I am capable to recognize that people can claim to be Christian and do very un-Christian things. Are you capable of recognizing that simple truth?

Columbus wasn't given patronage to sail east in order to spread Christianity. He wasn't funded by the Church. He was funded by greedy ass monarchs who wanted to cut out the typically Muslim middle-man from the spice trade.  Slaves were taken to the New World because A) they were made available by Arabs and other Black Africans and, B) economics.

slavery free labor was the engine that drove this nation.  All those damn Ivy League schools as well.  The North had slaves as well.  I will readily provide you a book to read on this matter all rhetoric aside.

[Horsefly]

7 minutes ago, concha said:

I have already acknowledged that there was some influence on the North.

I pointed to America as strongest and greatest.

That did not occur until after the Civil War and arguably not until around the time of WW I.

And even Civil War and earlier,  the guys with the cotton lost. Not so powerful. Not so great.

 Where do you think the countries wealth came from that took us a few decades from WWI?  Our cotton production excelled after the civil war, well into the 1870s. I gave the production numbers for that era.

[concha]

1 minute ago, DevilDog said:

slavery free labor was the engine that drove this nation.  All those damn Ivy League schools as well.  The North had slaves as well.  I will readily provide you a book to read on this matter all rhetoric aside.

Most slavery in the North was ended many decades before the Civil War. it did not build Northern industry. It was effectively over well before the industrial revolution happened.

 

[Horsefly]

1 minute ago, concha said:

Most slavery in the North was ended many decades before the Civil War. it did not build Northern industry. It was effectively over well before the industrial revolution happened.

 

But the ports in NY for southern slave trade were open.

[concha]

1 minute ago, Horsefly said:

 Where do you think the countries wealth that took us a few decades from wwI? Our cotton production excelled after the civil war, well into the 1870s.

Again, the US became a global power not until well after the Civil War. Steel, coal, oil, Northern manufacturing... none of it would have happened without cotton and the wealth it created (which was centered in the South) - is that your argument?

Run with that. All that cotton wealth in Pittsburgh, New York, Chicago...

[DevilDog]

10 minutes ago, concha said:

Most slavery in the North was ended many decades before the Civil War. it did not build Northern industry. It was effectively over well before the industrial revolution happened.

 

You also conveniently forget that the North enlisted over 179k African Americans to swell their ranks.  Over 270 of the North 1100 officers defected to the South as well.  I wonder if slavery benefited them.  There are a lot of variables in their defeat than just the industrial north vs agricultural South. 

 Imagine if those racist below the Mason Dixie had the same privilege to unleash that manpower.  By the way I'm glad they lost or right now you would be teaching me more foolishness. lol of course the nation exploded after the civil war that cheap labor went North and the nation took over the South. 

Run with all that revisionism all you want.  

 

[Horsefly]

12 minutes ago, concha said:

Again, the US became a global power not until well after the Civil War. Steel, coal, oil, Northern manufacturing... none of it would have happened without cotton and the wealth it created (which was centered in the South) - is that your argument?

Run with that. All that cotton wealth in Pittsburgh, New York, Chicago...

textile manufacturing relied on cotton produced in the south, again, we are repeating. that wealth = capital for any other venture.

[concha]

5 minutes ago, DevilDog said:

You also conveniently forget that the North enlisted over 179k African Americans to swell their ranks.  Over 270 of the North 1100 officers defected to the South as well.  I wonder if slavery benefited them.  There are a lot of variables in their defeat than just the industrial north vs agricultural South. 

 Imagine if those racist below the Mason Dixie had the same privilege to unleash that manpower.  By the way I'm glad they lost or right now you would be teaching me more foolishness. lol of course the nation exploded after the civil war that cheap labor went North and the nation took over the South. 

Run with all that revisionism all you want.  

 

I didn't conveniently forget shit, thanks.

Did you conveniently forget the flood of mainly European immigrants?  Or were the steel mills filled with just African-Americans?

 

[concha]

4 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

textile manufacturing relied on cotton produced in the south, again, we are repeating. that wealth = capital for any other venture.

Southern racist capital didn't fuel the period when America became a true world power.

[Horsefly]

13 minutes ago, concha said:

Southern racist capital didn't fuel the period when America became a true world power.

Northern banks swelled their coffers from southern cotton and slavery.  That capital helped finance other industries.  There was never this clear line of economies between the north and the south that you want to believe.

forbes article excerpt:

"In the decades between the American Revolution and the Civil War, slavery—as a source of the cotton that fed Rhode Island’s mills, as a source of the wealth that filled New York’s banks, as a source of the markets that inspired Massachusetts manufacturers—proved indispensable to national economic development...was a source of great wealth for the nation’s merchants and banks.,”

[concha]

1 minute ago, Horsefly said:

Northern banks swelled their coffers from southern cotton and slavery.  That capital helped finance other industries.  There was never this clear line of economies between the north and the south that you want to believe.

"In the decades between the American Revolution and the Civil War, slavery—as a source of the cotton that fed Rhode Island’s mills, as a source of the wealth that filled New York’s banks, as a source of the markets that inspired Massachusetts manufacturers—proved indispensable to national economic development,”

Yeah. We've been through this.

I referred to strongest and greatest and you keep going back to when we weren't. Maybe you missed the "built" part which occurred overwhelmingly post-slavery and post Civil War.

Argue with yourself.

 

[Horsefly]

1 minute ago, concha said:

Yeah. We've been through this.

I referred to strongest and greatest and you keep going back to when we weren't. Maybe you missed the "built" part which occurred overwhelmingly post-slavery and post Civil War.

Argue with yourself.

 

So, let's get this straight. I point out northern banks made wealth off of cotton and the slave trade and you believe then they ran off with the wealth and made no investments into coal, steel, manufacturing, etc...they financed none of it? Is that what you believe?  Sure, clearly capitalism was lost on them.

Good night