HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 I just saw an article of a man on trial and is facing up to 10 years in prison which means hell die in prison due to his age. These guards at any of those camps had absolutely no choice but to do their job. Yes we know in all civility and in the US I'm sure they would be considered illegal orders but under a dictatorship you are gonna probably die for defying those orders. Do you guys think it's been 80 years, these guys had no choice in the matter and were doing what they were told to do. Heres the article you guys can have it https://ml.t-mobile.com/#tmobile/news-plus/worldnews/former-ss-guard-testifies-he-was-aware-of-camp-conditionsef79389b12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concha Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 The SS were the true believers and worst of the worst. They ran the camps and the Einsatzgruppen execution squads. The SS were volunteers up until the latter stages of the war. We are not talking about questionable military choices here. We are talking about animals who rounded up men, women and children and herded them into cattle cars off to industrialized death camps (if they didn't simply kill them on the spot). If I'm not mistaken, these men could have demanded transfers to combat units (I believe that was considered a right of a German soldier, though the SS were not strictly military). In the end, these men made choices. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, concha said: The SS were the true believers and worst of the worst. They ran the camps and the Einsatzgruppen execution squads. The SS were volunteers up until the latter stages of the war. We are not talking about questionable military choices here. We are talking about animals who rounded up men, women and children and herded them into cattle cars off to industrialized death camps (if they didn't simply kill them on the spot). If I'm not mistaken, these men could have demanded transfers to combat units (I believe that was considered a right of a German soldier, though the SS were not strictly military). In the end, these men made choices. Wow, conch. I agree with you here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concha Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Horsefly said: Wow, conch. I agree with you here. The Apocalypse is nigh... 😉 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 37 minutes ago, concha said: The SS were the true believers and worst of the worst. They ran the camps and the Einsatzgruppen execution squads. The SS were volunteers up until the latter stages of the war. We are not talking about questionable military choices here. We are talking about animals who rounded up men, women and children and herded them into cattle cars off to industrialized death camps (if they didn't simply kill them on the spot). If I'm not mistaken, these men could have demanded transfers to combat units (I believe that was considered a right of a German soldier, though the SS were not strictly military). In the end, these men made choices. It does state in the article he did not volunteer for the SS in this particular case so does he fall into the same category of which your talking about. Guys like goebbels himmler etc yes were all true believers in the reich and would kill anyone who stood in their way of advancing their way of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZone Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 hour ago, HSFBfan said: I just saw an article of a man on trial and is facing up to 10 years in prison which means hell die in prison due to his age. These guards at any of those camps had absolutely no choice but to do their job. Yes we know in all civility and in the US I'm sure they would be considered illegal orders but under a dictatorship you are gonna probably die for defying those orders. Do you guys think it's been 80 years, these guys had no choice in the matter and were doing what they were told to do. Heres the article you guys can have it https://ml.t-mobile.com/#tmobile/news-plus/worldnews/former-ss-guard-testifies-he-was-aware-of-camp-conditionsef79389b12 Must be a slow day at fox/nazi news today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 41 minutes ago, RedZone said: Must be a slow day at fox/nazi news today? Must be only slow people can't figure out that it was a 'network provider' T-Mobile news story...🙄 Funny that a phone service provider gets to 'push' news stories to their (somewhat captive audience) customers.....don't you think? On point of the thread, would think each case could vary considerably in representation, so any 'judgement' would have to be made on a 'case by case' basis......I did like Concha's strong response though, it just can't be guilt by association and must be proven thru each individuals actions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 9 minutes ago, Troll said: Must be only slow people can't figure out that it was a 'network provider' T-Mobile news story...🙄 Funny that a phone service provider gets to 'push' news stories to their (somewhat captive audience) customers.....don't you think? On point of the thread, would think each case could vary considerably in representation, so any 'judgement' would have to be made on a 'case by case' basis......I did like Concha's strong response though, it just can't be guilt by association and must be proven thru each individuals actions... Same story from the Sacramento bee https://www.google.com/amp/amp.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/article221583825.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 3 hours ago, HSFBfan said: I just saw an article of a man on trial and is facing up to 10 years in prison which means hell die in prison due to his age. These guards at any of those camps had absolutely no choice but to do their job. Yes we know in all civility and in the US I'm sure they would be considered illegal orders but under a dictatorship you are gonna probably die for defying those orders. Do you guys think it's been 80 years, these guys had no choice in the matter and were doing what they were told to do. Heres the article you guys can have it https://ml.t-mobile.com/#tmobile/news-plus/worldnews/former-ss-guard-testifies-he-was-aware-of-camp-conditionsef79389b12 Each should be tried on an individual basis. If they volunteered or were brutal then they should be jailed. If they were forced into service and really didn't want to do their job but were coerced then there should be leniency or no charges. Just me 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 Just now, ohio said: Each should be tried on an individual basis. If they volunteered or were brutal then they should be jailed. If they were forced into service and really didn't want to do their job but were coerced then there should be leniency or no charges. Just me 2 cents. I can agree with this. Sounds fair and reasonable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZone Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 59 minutes ago, Troll said: Must be only slow people can't figure out that it was a 'network provider' T-Mobile news story...🙄 ..99.99% of this kid's threads are from fox/nazi news. fox must be boring today.. Just have a seat with the rest of dunces... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 50 minutes ago, HSFBfan said: I can agree with this. Sounds fair and reasonable Interesting position. So in one example we can have refugees fleeing their circumstances, many of them with their lives in jeopardy, break laws to escape the consequences, and you have no leniency. on the otherhand, you have individuals that commit crimes against humanity, in some cases to avoid the consequences of not following those orders, but here you want to consider granting leniency. Fundamentally, what is the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarterBlue Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 I would try him. If found guilty, I would keep him under house arrest for the rest of his natural life. TBH, that is pretty much what I would do in the Bill Cosby case too. Not that the two crimes can be equated, though both are horrible. But given the age and health of the individuals, imprisoning them does not make a whole lot of sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Horsefly said: Interesting position. So in one example we can have refugees fleeing their circumstances, many of them with their lives in jeopardy, break laws to escape the consequences, and you have no leniency. on the otherhand, you have individuals that commit crimes against humanity, in some cases to avoid the consequences of not following those orders, but here you want to consider granting leniency. Fundamentally, what is the difference? In the military you have no choice but to follow orders. So these german soldiers under Hitler or any dictator have absolutely no choice but to follow orders or die themselves. In the 2nd instance these illegals are not being ordered to break the laws of other nations by breaking thru there borders and demanding things from these countries in which they are there illegally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, HSFBfan said: In the military you have no choice but to follow orders. So these german soldiers under Hitler or any dictator have absolutely no choice but to follow orders or die themselves. In the 2nd instance these illegals are not being ordered to break the laws of other nations by breaking thru there borders and demanding things from these countries in which they are there illegally. But they are both victim of circumstances. One is being forced by the military or face death, the other is facing uncertain death by staying in their current condition. Both are making decisions that eliminate or reduce the undesired outcome...DEATH! the bottomline is both made choices. BTW I don’t agree with the poster that said maybe they shouldn’t even be charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Horsefly said: But they are both victim of circumstances. One is being forced by the military or face death, the other is facing uncertain death by staying in their current condition. Both are making decisions that eliminate or reduce the undesired outcome...DEATH! One is doing it illegally and has a choice. The other does not. It is not the same and it makes no sense to equate the 2 at all. Maybe in your eyes it does and I figure that it does but you'll never convince me those circumstance are the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, HSFBfan said: One is doing it illegally and has a choice. The other does not. It is not the same and it makes no sense to equate the 2 at all. Maybe in your eyes it does and I figure that it does but you'll never convince me those circumstance are the same. They both had choices and both acted illegally. You do understand that choosing death or punishment over duty is also a choice. That’s called sacrifice. Attempting to escape to avoid carrying out illegal duties would also be a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 Just now, Horsefly said: They both had choices and both acted illegally. You do understand that choosing death or punishment over duty is also a choice. That’s called sacrifice. Attempting to escape to avoid carrying out illegal duties would also be a choice. Yeah I guess I can go to the firing squad and get shot myself or be hung for not obeying the orders of the dictatorship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, HSFBfan said: Yeah I guess I can go to the firing squad and get shot myself or be hung for not obeying the orders of the dictatorship. That’s sacrifice, and don’t think for a minute that some didn’t choose that course or path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Horsefly said: That’s sacrifice, and don’t think for a minute that some didn’t choose that course or path. Of course they did. Ever see the movie valkyrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, HSFBfan said: Of course they did. Ever see the movie valkyrie Yes I have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 Just now, Horsefly said: Yes I have... Then obv they decided to try to kill the fuhrer than follow his will and orders and they died for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, HSFBfan said: Then obv they decided to try to kill the fuhrer than follow his will and orders and they died for it. And that’s commendable, making those that chose to obey his orders without defying them inexcusable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSFBfan Posted November 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Horsefly said: And that’s commendable, making those that chose to obey his orders without defying them inexcusable. I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. But good discussion. Maybe one day well agree on a full conversation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 minute ago, HSFBfan said: I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. But good discussion. Maybe one day well agree on a full conversation I believe we are making ground though HSFBfan, inch by inch. 😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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