noonereal Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 Alright, I'll share When I was in college my roommate sophomore year (a great guy) had served in Vietnam. He had been shot off a tank. He could not add 1 plus 1. No matter how he struggled. That portion of his brain was in a rice patty. Obviously brain scas show where math is processed. Honest,this is kinda silly to dispute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, noonereal said: god bless Maybe you could share a link or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 Just now, Belly Bob said: Also I've been listening to Philip Glass' Violin Concerto No 1. It's one of the best things I've heard in a long time. this was the like I will be seeing him March 16th at Carnegie Hall... way excited. Quote I think that the soul is a non-physical simple. OK, so you say the soul lives outside the body. Where? What is your theory? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 1 minute ago, noonereal said: [...] Obviously brain scas show where math is processed. Honest,this is kinda silly to dispute. Sorry, I was claiming that numbers weren't physical. I don't deny that we know which parts of the brain are active when we do mathematics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 Just now, Belly Bob said: Sorry, I was claiming that numbers weren't physical. I don't deny that we know which parts of the brain are active when we do mathematics. But those active parts are physical! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 2 hours ago, noonereal said: OK, so you say the soul lives outside the body. Where? What is your theory? It's not in space because it's not physical, just like the number 3 isn't in space. You can't point somewhere and say, "There's the number 3." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, noonereal said: But those active parts are physical! I don't doubt that brain activity is physical. I doubt that numbers are physical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
954gator Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 This is a bit OT, but I will say this. In most of these type of debates I favor the rational and scientific over the spiritual. That doesn't mean that I think our science and understanding of a great many things (including the brain, universe etc) is perfectly sound, in fact we still know extremely little (and it could be flat out wrong). I just think that concepts like the soul, heaven, hell, after life, etc all stem from things written a very long time ago, in a time of significantly less knowledge (and waaaaay more corruption), that somehow has been passed down with a very high number of people believing it, without any questioning of the subject. Do I think there is something incredible that we will never understand that possibly supersedes the science we know, or that there is something that could be considered god like in the sense of the creation of the universe or similar feats...sure. I just don't believe the PEOPLE that think they know or understand it. I think religions should be something like Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy. Maybe use it for children as most religions help instill the idea of right and wrong etc, but the fact that it's still used in politics and in matters of state...not a fan. It just separates people and provides mistrust and propaganda for ulterior motives. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 20 minutes ago, 954gator said: This is a bit OT, but I will say this. In most of these type of debates I favor the rational and scientific over the spiritual. That doesn't mean that I think our science and understanding of a great many things (including the brain, universe etc) is perfectly sound, in fact we still know extremely little (and it could be flat out wrong). I just think that concepts like the soul, heaven, hell, after life, etc all stem from things written a very long time ago, in a time of significantly less knowledge (and waaaaay more corruption), that somehow has been passed down with a very high number of people believing it, without any questioning of the subject. [...] I agree that appeals to religious authority or to spiritual texts are inappropriate in a discussion about whether the mind is identical to the brain. But I don't think any of us who deny that the mind is the brain have said anything about the spiritual. Betrand Russell, who was an infamous atheist, rejected the view that the mind was the brain. And he certainly didn't think that numbers were physical. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
954gator Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 28 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: I agree that appeals to religious authority or to spiritual texts are inappropriate in a discussion about whether the mind is identical to the brain. But I don't think any of us who deny that the mind is the brain have said anything about the spiritual. Betrand Russell, who was an infamous atheist, rejected the view that the mind was the brain. And he certainly didn't think that numbers were physical. Yeah it had more to do with the topic earlier about the soul. As far as the topic of the mind, I think it is important to specify the definition of "mind". If we are talking about the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought, then I DO AGREE that the mind isn't solely the brain. I would say the mind is a result of the entire nervous system, with the brain playing a very large role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
954gator Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 nm double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, 954gator said: Yeah it had more to do with the topic earlier about the soul. As far as the topic of the mind, I think it is important to specify the definition of "mind". If we are talking about the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought, then I DO AGREE that the mind isn't solely the brain. I would say the mind is a result of the entire nervous system, with the brain playing a very large role. I've been using "mind" and "soul" as synonyms. It sounds to me like you think that the mind is an effect of the nervous system, but that it isn't identical to the nervous system. That seems plausible enough to me. Do you think that the mind is a non-physical effect of the nervous system, or a physical effect of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
954gator Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Belly Bob said: I've been using "mind" and "soul" as synonyms. It sounds to me like you think that the mind is an effect of the nervous system, but that it isn't identical to the nervous system. That seems plausible enough to me. Do you think that the mind is a non-physical effect of the nervous system, or a physical effect of it? Damn Belly you got me reading Psychology lol. I would say I lean pretty heavily toward Reductive Physicalism, but I"ll admit I think the question of consciousness is unsolvable by human minds at least at this point (Mysterianism). So to answer your question I think it's physical, but I don't think we understand all the physical properties and intricacies of the cerebral cortex just yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 13 hours ago, Belly Bob said: I don't doubt that brain activity is physical. I doubt that numbers are physical. numbers are a brain activity... they are a concept which is physically in the brain You have this idea that a tiny #3 needs to be discover somewhere which is very silly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 9 hours ago, 954gator said: I don't think we understand all the physical properties and intricacies of the cerebral cortex just yet. all no enough however to make reasoned valued judgements 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 12 hours ago, 954gator said: Yeah it had more to do with the topic earlier about the soul. As far as the topic of the mind, I think it is important to specify the definition of "mind". If we are talking about the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought, then I DO AGREE that the mind isn't solely the brain. I would say the mind is a result of the entire nervous system, with the brain playing a very large role. what is it then? where is it then? nothing in the universe exists that does not exist read that again that is what you guys are demanding of the mind and soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgGoneIt Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 Just now, noonereal said: what is it then? where is it then? nothing in the universe exists that does not exist read that again that is what you guys are demanding of the mind and soul. I already told them that the mind is nothing more than our earliest learned behavior in combination with our genetic predispositions. Mind/personality/soul are all one and the same imo. They can't really be separated from each other, although they can be separated from their current vessel. Your soul isn't in your heart, or your big toe. I was also wanting to give an opinion on the earlier convo about whether souls can change or something to that effect that was brought up. I think it can. I think some people are 'empaths' and everyone has this trait to some extent. For instance, a strong empath would make the best preacher at a church, because he/she can take what you are feeling on and multiply it/regenerate it which then connects many to that feeling in the church. This explains why people get these warm/emotional feelings in "good" churches and not so much in other churches. To that effect, the people/souls you hang out with, over time can affect your soul for the better or worse depending on the type of people. I could get into this a lot deeper involving how some souls have negative disposition and others have positive. None of this is coming from a provable grounds, just my opinion from my own "studies" and life experiences as coming from an extremely open minded person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said: I already told them that the mind is nothing more than our earliest learned behavior in combination with our genetic predispositions. Mind/personality/soul are all one and the same imo. They can't really be separated from each other, although they can be separated from their current vessel. Your soul isn't in your heart, or your big toe. I was also wanting to give an opinion on the earlier convo about whether souls can change or something to that effect that was brought up. I think it can. I think some people are 'empaths' and everyone has this trait to some extent. For instance, a strong empath would make the best preacher at a church, because he/she can take what you are feeling on and multiply it/regenerate it which then connects many to that feeling in the church. This explains why people get these warm/emotional feelings in "good" churches and not so much in other churches. To that effect, the people/souls you hang out with, over time can affect your soul for the better or worse depending on the type of people. I could get into this a lot deeper involving how some souls have negative disposition and others have positive. None of this is coming from a provable grounds, just my opinion from my own "studies" and life experiences as coming from an extremely open minded person. mind and soul are words that have fill the void of what we still don't understand They will become obsolete soon. As to those with empath... not hard to understand as I seriously have been though of as having this ability by some. For me, it's a mix of reading another emotions WHICH THEY DISPLAY on their face and body movements (language) coupled with heightened empathy by birth (allows one to identify stronger than most people) along with a keen understanding of psychology. Also needed is to reason objectively..... Now, does it go further in some individuals? Might. As we know we are all part of one life force, it is possible that or signals are sent by all of us and received by all of us. Just that some are more finely attuned. This would not be mysterious or medical, this would be just things we still have not discover. Thing of it like this, our bodies are a collection of organs that all pull together for their own good. Mutually dependent. We know the vagus never allows the brain in our stomach top talk to the brain in our head. Before we discovered the vagus nerve we did not know how this worked. But it worked. Lot's more to be discovered but the notion that it's is magical or supranational is nonsense. Like those putting forth the belief that we have a soul. If we do, it can be discovered. No magic, simply not yet understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 2 hours ago, noonereal said: numbers are a brain activity... they are a concept which is physically in the brain You have this idea that a tiny #3 needs to be discover somewhere which is very silly.... If numbers are parts of the brain, then if brains didn't exist, then numbers wouldn't exist. That's absurd, because even before there were human brains, 2 and 3 was 5. Think about it a bit. My view is definitely not that we need to discover a tiny 3 somewhere. That's your view, isn't it? And you think that we have discovered a tiny 3 somewhere: it's a little part of the human brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 20 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: If numbers are parts of the brain, then if brains didn't exist, then numbers wouldn't exist. That's absurd, because even before there were human brains, 2 and 3 was 5. Think about it a bit. My view is definitely not that we need to discover a tiny 3 somewhere. That's your view, isn't it? And you think that we have discovered a tiny 3 somewhere: it's a little part of the human brain. absurd is indeed the key word here None of this is reasoned or holistic in thought. there is not even enough foundation here to go back and forth. So I'll just say, I appreciate your curiosity and let it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 32 minutes ago, noonereal said: absurd is indeed the key word here So we agree that numbers are not parts of the brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 34 minutes ago, noonereal said: None of this is reasoned or holistic in thought. Really? You must have missed my arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 18 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: So we agree that numbers are not parts of the brain. I am starting to wonder if you have one. lol (a joke) I am not gonna engage in this... stupidity sorry, I really was trying to get out of this nicely it has just become stupid though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noonereal Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 17 minutes ago, Belly Bob said: Really? You must have missed my arguments. If it comforts you to believe this, than do. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belly Bob Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 2 hours ago, noonereal said: [...] I am not gonna engage in this... stupidity sorry, I really was trying to get out of this nicely it has just become stupid though. You're supposed to be an equal partner in the discussion. But I've done all the hard work. I gave you a bunch of carefully laid out arguments. You mostly ignored them, and you didn't give any of your own. You suggested that science has discovered that numbers are parts of the brain. I asked you for a link. You didn't do that either. You've been like a bad college roommate who wants to have a party but who does't want to pitch in for beer or to clean up afterwards. The discussion isn't stupid at all. It's just that you've been lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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