OT-Savants and Geniuses

[World Citizen]

1 hour ago, AztecPadre said:

This gets me thinking about things such as dejavu or when u get a "feeling" something is about to happen. I get dreams sometimes that are like you get on experiencing future events. And no not Nostradames like for the whole world just for my personal life.

I would like to hear about your experiences if you wouldn't mind.

I've had a lot of dreams (mainly when I was young) where I am in my classroom at school and a new kid comes into the room.  A day or two after the dream the exact same kid comes walking in the room.  Everything, as far as who was sitting where when the kid comes in is the same.  

I thought that was pretty cool but it didn't blow me away like another dream I had.  Just a few weeks after graduating high school I dreamed that I was at a party out in one of the pear orchards and was very drunk and wanted to go home.  This kid who I knew but never talked to much had agreed to give me a ride home.  So him, myself and a very hot girl left the party and drive me home.  On the way home he made a left turn down this street and as we were turning, the passenger door flew open and I got sucked out of the truck and was flying through the air and hit the street where it meets the curb.  Now this is all happening in my dream.  They both got out and helped me back in the truck.  He was saying how sorry he was and that he would fix his door the next day.  The got girl was all over me trying to make me feel better, which it did of course ?.  As I was flying through the air, in my dream, the only thought was to tuck and roll when I hit the ground, and the tv show "the fall guy" starting Lee Majors.  Strange thought to have in a dream.  They took me home and the dream ends.

The next morning when I woke up, it took me a few minutes to realize I had a dream.  You know those dreams that have that quality of being real.  Several days later, having not thought of the dream, I went to a party.  You know where the party was.  

Now what happened at the time I was drunk and wanted to leave is exactly what happened in my dream.  But the thing that blew me away wasn't that the dream came true.  It was the thoughts and feelings and emotions of the dream was the exact same thoughts and feelings and emotions during the real experience.  As I was flying through the air, I did think of the "fall guy" show and tuck and roll.  

This experience was an experience of a future event.  Even the injuries I suffered in the dream were identical to my actual injuries.  Wish I would have remembered the dream before I got into that truck though.  

[Belly Bob]

On February 26, 2017 at 2:04 PM, AztecPadre said:

Do you believe you have a soul? Honest question. 

Do you mean an immortal soul?

I, for one, think so. But I'm just a guy on the www. So here's an argument.

1. If something is simple, then it has no parts.

2. If something has no parts, then it can't be destroyed.

3. Therefore, if something is simple, then it can't be destroyed.

4. The soul is simple.

5. Therefore, the soul can't be destroyed.

This argument is old. It goes all the way back to Plato. But versions of it have been endorsed over the years by some true heavyweights. Leibniz endorsed a version of the argument, for example. 

A lot people these days reject (4) because, they say, the soul is just the brain, and the brain isn't simple. 

But I think that that's a mistake. 

[ECHS05]

The soul is just the brain. A bag of chemicals... creating emotion & feelings, and increased awareness of consciousness.

So technically, it's not really a soul. Just a thought. Again, an awareness of consciousness.

[Belly Bob]

33 minutes ago, ECHS05 said:

The soul is just the brain. A bag of chemicals... creating emotion & feelings, and increased awareness of consciousness.

So technically, it's not really a soul. Just a thought. Again, an awareness of consciousness.

It's an important question. 

But notice that Descartes, Leibniz, Betrand Russell, Saul Kripke, and David Chalmers all reject the idea that the mind or soul can be reduced to the brain. 

And notice, if you would be so kind and so gracious, that the first three are world-historical geniuses who made major contributions to the fields of science and mathematics and who thought longer and harder about these issues than any of us have; and Kripke is widely regarded as a genius of our own time: he was teaching graduate-level courses in modal logic at MIT when he was an undergraduate in mathematics at Harvard.

And Chalmers isn't nearly as stupid as he looks.  

So maybe you should give us an argument or something like that, out of respect for these guys, who disagree with you. 

[HawgGoneIt]

3 hours ago, World Citizen said:

I would like to hear about your experiences if you wouldn't mind.

I've had a lot of dreams (mainly when I was young) where I am in my classroom at school and a new kid comes into the room.  A day or two after the dream the exact same kid comes walking in the room.  Everything, as far as who was sitting where when the kid comes in is the same.  

I thought that was pretty cool but it didn't blow me away like another dream I had.  Just a few weeks after graduating high school I dreamed that I was at a party out in one of the pear orchards and was very drunk and wanted to go home.  This kid who I knew but never talked to much had agreed to give me a ride home.  So him, myself and a very hot girl left the party and drive me home.  On the way home he made a left turn down this street and as we were turning, the passenger door flew open and I got sucked out of the truck and was flying through the air and hit the street where it meets the curb.  Now this is all happening in my dream.  They both got out and helped me back in the truck.  He was saying how sorry he was and that he would fix his door the next day.  The got girl was all over me trying to make me feel better, which it did of course ?.  As I was flying through the air, in my dream, the only thought was to tuck and roll when I hit the ground, and the tv show "the fall guy" starting Lee Majors.  Strange thought to have in a dream.  They took me home and the dream ends.

The next morning when I woke up, it took me a few minutes to realize I had a dream.  You know those dreams that have that quality of being real.  Several days later, having not thought of the dream, I went to a party.  You know where the party was.  

Now what happened at the time I was drunk and wanted to leave is exactly what happened in my dream.  But the thing that blew me away wasn't that the dream came true.  It was the thoughts and feelings and emotions of the dream was the exact same thoughts and feelings and emotions during the real experience.  As I was flying through the air, I did think of the "fall guy" show and tuck and roll.  

This experience was an experience of a future event.  Even the injuries I suffered in the dream were identical to my actual injuries.  Wish I would have remembered the dream before I got into that truck though.  

 

 

What if you caused yourself to have this experience and it wasn't actually a true premonition?

This is the stuff that I have wondered about when having deja vu. What if subconsciously your mind put you into that situation of which you once dreamed? 

[ECHS05]

2 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

It's an important question. 

But notice that Descartes, Leibniz, Betrand Russell, Saul Kripke, and David Chalmers all reject the idea that the mind or soul can be reduced to the brain. 

And notice, if you would be so kind and so gracious, that the first three are world-historical geniuses who made major contributions to the fields of science and mathematics and who thought longer and harder about these issues than any of us have; and Kripke is widely regarded as a genius of our own time: he was teaching graduate-level courses in modal logic at MIT when he was an undergraduate in mathematics at Harvard.

And Chalmers isn't nearly as stupid as he looks.  

So maybe you should give us an argument or something like that, out of respect for these guys, who disagree with you. 

There is life.

And there is eternal darkness.

Thats my argument.

[HawgGoneIt]

3 minutes ago, ECHS05 said:

There is life.

And there is eternal darkness.

Thats my argument.

 

If we are nothing much more than a lot of synapses firing and then we know that after death this stops occurring, what next?

If we are to believe Einstein and think that energy never ceases to exist, but only changes form, then we live forever in some other forms that are maybe continuing to "die" in one form and become another. If we are a consciousness and that is only controlling this body we have now, and then our consciousness is just synapses more or less, then once we have worn out the welcome of this form, our being, our consciousness remains and enters some new form. Or in some way relives the same life in a new dimension or, or, or. These are some of the things that can explain the deja vu, premonitions etc. that some people have. What if this life is like groundhog day in some ways, and we just relive it again and again. 

 

 

Check out Robert Lanza's theory of everything. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-lanza/5-reasons-you-wont-die_b_810936.html

[AztecPadre]

3 hours ago, World Citizen said:

I would like to hear about your experiences if you wouldn't mind.

I've had a lot of dreams (mainly when I was young) where I am in my classroom at school and a new kid comes into the room.  A day or two after the dream the exact same kid comes walking in the room.  Everything, as far as who was sitting where when the kid comes in is the same.  

I thought that was pretty cool but it didn't blow me away like another dream I had.  Just a few weeks after graduating high school I dreamed that I was at a party out in one of the pear orchards and was very drunk and wanted to go home.  This kid who I knew but never talked to much had agreed to give me a ride home.  So him, myself and a very hot girl left the party and drive me home.  On the way home he made a left turn down this street and as we were turning, the passenger door flew open and I got sucked out of the truck and was flying through the air and hit the street where it meets the curb.  Now this is all happening in my dream.  They both got out and helped me back in the truck.  He was saying how sorry he was and that he would fix his door the next day.  The got girl was all over me trying to make me feel better, which it did of course ?.  As I was flying through the air, in my dream, the only thought was to tuck and roll when I hit the ground, and the tv show "the fall guy" starting Lee Majors.  Strange thought to have in a dream.  They took me home and the dream ends.

The next morning when I woke up, it took me a few minutes to realize I had a dream.  You know those dreams that have that quality of being real.  Several days later, having not thought of the dream, I went to a party.  You know where the party was.  

Now what happened at the time I was drunk and wanted to leave is exactly what happened in my dream.  But the thing that blew me away wasn't that the dream came true.  It was the thoughts and feelings and emotions of the dream was the exact same thoughts and feelings and emotions during the real experience.  As I was flying through the air, I did think of the "fall guy" show and tuck and roll.  

This experience was an experience of a future event.  Even the injuries I suffered in the dream were identical to my actual injuries.  Wish I would have remembered the dream before I got into that truck though.  

Lol. I loved the show. My favorite intro song too. Hot chick also.

[World Citizen]

33 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

 

 

What if you caused yourself to have this experience and it wasn't actually a true premonition?

This is the stuff that I have wondered about when having deja vu. What if subconsciously your mind put you into that situation of which you once dreamed? 

Good question.  I think it would have been difficult to orchestrate all the people being the same and at the same time and place.  And I must stress that it was much more than a premonition, it was the same thoughts that went thru my "mind" and the same curiousity about those thoughts.  You know how time slows down if your in a accident or some other crisis of sorts?  Where you seem to have a lot of thoughts squeazed very comfortably in a short time span.  The dream had that same slowing down of time as it did when I actually got sucked out of that truck.  

However, it still may be that I caused myself to have that experience as you suggest.  The two are not exclusive imo.  

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, ECHS05 said:

There is life.

And there is eternal darkness.

Thats my argument.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. 

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, HawgGoneIt said:

 

I love me some Tim and Eric. 

[Belly Bob]

5 hours ago, World Citizen said:

This experience was an experience of a future event.

It's an interesting case. I guess a skeptic could say that, given how many dreams there are, there are bound to be a few cases in which someone's dreams match up with some future event. 

I guess I think that is the most plausible explanation of the case.

But I'm open to the possibility that people can see into the future. 

However, if people can see into the future, then the future is already determined. That might be a scary thought. 

[HawgGoneIt]

3 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

It's an interesting case. I guess a skeptic could say that, given how many dreams there are, there are bound to be a few cases in which someone's dreams match up with some future event. 

I guess I think that is the most plausible explanation of the case.

But I'm open to the possibility that people can see into the future. 

However, if people can see into the future, then the future is already determined. That might be a scary thought. 

 

Did your read the huffpost link I posted up there? Interesting thoughts on the future and past in one of the 5 explanations. 

[Belly Bob]

1 minute ago, HawgGoneIt said:

 

Did your read the huffpost link I posted up there? Interesting thoughts on the future and past in one of the 5 explanations. 

No, not yet. This is one of the things I do when I take a break from reading. But I might check it out. I've clicked a few links in the past. 

[HawgGoneIt]

5 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

No, not yet. This is one of the things I do when I take a break from reading. But I might check it out. I've clicked a few links in the past. 

You don't have to click that link... Just google search Robert Lanza and you'll find much of it in varying forms. Interesting guy. He tries to seam all of the great physicists works and theories together. Good stuff.

[noonereal]

13 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Already know the answer.  Yes.  

Wheeler conjectures we are part of a universe that is a work in progress; we are tiny patches of the universe looking at itself — and building itself. It's not only the future that is still undetermined but the past as well. And by peering back into time, even all the way back to the Big Bang, our present observations select one out of many possible quantum histories for the universe. http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse 

[World Citizen]

15 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

It's an interesting case. I guess a skeptic could say that, given how many dreams there are, there are bound to be a few cases in which someone's dreams match up with some future event. 

I guess I think that is the most plausible explanation of the case.

But I'm open to the possibility that people can see into the future. 

However, if people can see into the future, then the future is already determined. That might be a scary thought. 

I think it is like you say, there are so many dreams it is bound to happen, i certainly don't think I have any special ability for this kind of thing.  It's something that just happened.  I do think it is incredibly interesting.  

As far as the future being determined, I don't know.  Could be and I'm not sure it matters because it would be our first time experiencing it.  I do think that we come here with a plan and we put ourselves in certain environments in order to best accomplish our goals.  Our free will comes in as "a freedom to feel one way or another about any given situation".  When a important event happens and a person either reacts negatively or positively to it, that choice, learning from it or not, plays a huge part in our growth as humans.  Some people make lemonade out of lemons and some just stay sour.  That is where our free will plays a part imo. 

Hope that makes some sense.

[noonereal]

19 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

people can see into the future. 

 the future is already determined.

that would be my thought however by seeing into the future I do not mean that I subscribe to clairvoyant games.

What I mean is this.

Every is in constant change.  The change can be predicted IF we know enough. We know how to change many things. Like chemicals into explosives, water into steam, flour into bread... the list is rather long... 

Given enough info and enough processing we can figure out the future. With me?

It's really no different than figuring out the past. Look at all we uncover from the past through new tools. Like DNA. 

Now you think.... but man has free will and depending on his choices, it will affect the future. 

Well, free will may not be as we think of it at all. 

I can pretty much predict how everyone in my family will react to certain situations. How? Like you. We know who is volatile, who is meek, who is brave or coward....

And all this is being decided by chemicals and synapses. 

All we need to do to predict the future is to have all the information. At any one time. Yes, now, or in the past. Wherever we have all information (and we have enough processing available) we can predict all forever. 

Your free will is an illusion. Sorry to be the bearer of news that is perceived as bad. 

Clairvoyants are completely different. 

 

Did anyone follow? I am not the worlds best explainer. 

 

[HawgGoneIt]

38 minutes ago, noonereal said:

that would be my thought however by seeing into the future I do not mean that I subscribe to clairvoyant games.

What I mean is this.

Every is in constant change.  The change can be predicted IF we know enough. We know how to change many things. Like chemicals into explosives, water into steam, flour into bread... the list is rather long... 

Given enough info and enough processing we can figure out the future. With me?

It's really no different than figuring out the past. Look at all we uncover from the past through new tools. Like DNA. 

Now you think.... but man has free will and depending on his choices, it will affect the future. 

Well, free will may not be as we think of it at all. 

I can pretty much predict how everyone in my family will react to certain situations. How? Like you. We know who is volatile, who is meek, who is brave or coward....

And all this is being decided by chemicals and synapses. 

All we need to do to predict the future is to have all the information. At any one time. Yes, now, or in the past. Wherever we have all information (and we have enough processing available) we can predict all forever. 

Your free will is an illusion. Sorry to be the bearer of news that is perceived as bad. 

Clairvoyants are completely different. 

 

Did anyone follow? I am not the worlds best explainer. 

 

 

I think you are correct. I also think there can be clairvoyants though. I'm not all the way on the complete clairvoyant bus as we currently deem it though. I'm wondering if in some ways there may be these parallel realities ongoing and that time could be faster or slower in them than that of the present we know. Perhaps clairvoyants as we know them are able to sneak peeks into these other realities and this gives them pretty good information as to the future tense of this present. I say pretty good information because the other reality that was seen may not take the exact same path as this present reality. Perhaps there is the ability to cross over and back etc. between these realities for someone in tune enough or even on accident in some cases, except not in body, only in energy form, which could explain ghosts and a lot of other "supernatural" or otherwise unexplained occurrences. Astral projections and the like. 

 

[noonereal]

3 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

 

 I also think there can be clairvoyants though. 

 

well then put me down. 

I have been "accused" of being a clairvoyant several times in my life. 

additionally, people I have a close relationship with come to me to explain their dreams.... then marvel that I can unravel them. 

Guess what, I have no powers. I do have a keen ability to reason... especially when it comes to human perceptions, understandings and emotions. 

 

 

[HawgGoneIt]

Just now, noonereal said:

well then put me down. 

I have been "accused" of being a clairvoyant several times in my life. 

additionally, people I have a close relationship with come to me to explain their dreams.... then marvel that I can unravel them. 

Guess what, I have no powers. I do have a keen ability to reason... especially when it comes to human perceptions, understandings and emotions. 

 

 

 

I understand and agree that people with high analytical thinking and reasoning abilities can piece together information well enough to do the things you mention. I don't disagree at all. I just also think there can be the other type of "soothsaying" as well.

[noonereal]

Just now, HawgGoneIt said:

 

I understand and agree that people with high analytical thinking and reasoning abilities can piece together information well enough to do the things you mention. I don't disagree at all. I just also think there can be the other type of "soothsaying" as well.

I agree. I do believe that on VERY rear occasion, the subconsciousness can do the same and dump the results into the conscious brain without the conscious brain being aware when the info came from.  

Then we have a clairvoyant that really believes he is one. (most, obviously are hucksters) 

I also think, it's at least possible, that some people, freaks (not meant negatively) can actually access future events, by  methods not YET understood. 

[HawgGoneIt]

2 minutes ago, noonereal said:

I agree. I do believe that on VERY rear occasion, the subconsciousness can do the same and dump the results into the conscious brain without the conscious brain being aware when the info came from.  

Then we have a clairvoyant that really believes he is one. (most, obviously are hucksters) 

I also think, it's at least possible, that some people, freaks (not meant negatively) can actually access future events, by  methods not YET understood. 

Not YET understood, or just unproven?

 

Take for instance our friend WorldCitizen and his "premonition". What if one of his other realities was ahead of the one where he had the accident, and his "future" self from that reality tried to bear him warning? As we know he didn't heed the warning, but he realizes there was a premonition or warning of the event. 

It's interesting stuff. I don't think it is a mystery that will ever be solved to the extent that proof could be shown definitively. In general people view the earth, the stars and the universe as inanimate and not living, but perhaps they are living, just not in the manner that most people can understand. That's probably just the Buddhist in me talking. Idk. 

[Belly Bob]

Derek Parfit (1942-2017), who was no doubt a genius, wrote:

Many people have assumed that, since these questions cannot have causal answers, they cannot have any answers. Some therefore dismiss these questions, taking them to be not worth considering. Others conclude that they do not make sense, assuming that, as Wittgenstein wrote, 'doubt can exist only where there is a question, and a question only where there is an answer'.

These assumptions are, I believe, mistaken. Even if these question could not have answers, they would still make sense, and they would still be worth considering. Such thoughts take us into the sublime, which applies to the highest mountains, raging oceans, the night sky, the interiors of some cathedrals, and other things that are superhuman, awesome, and limitless. No question is more sublime than why there is a Universe: why there is something rather than nothing. And, even if reality cannot be fully explained, we may still make progress, since what is inexplicable may become less baffling than it now seems (On What Matters: Volume II: 624).

[Belly Bob]

Apologies for the long post. But I came across this passage by accident tonight. And it seemed appropriate.