Meanwhile: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

[Belly Bob]

6 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

The existence of UBLs is simple. People can have money, scores of it, yet still not be happy. They then thirst for power. Power comes from controlling others, which the UBLs are great at. Couple that with the U.S. meddling in their governments and affairs for years, and "Houston, we have a problem."

I just think that this is too simple. 

The US has meddled in the affairs of many poor and oppressed states over the years.

Why is it that Muslim states in particular have been radicalized? 

[concha]

3 minutes ago, TheRealCAJ said:

What is the solution for drunk drivers?.....my best guess is there is no solution for "people".......

I'm personally more afraid of drunk drivers than Islamic terrorists....that's just me though.

And statistically you'd be spot on.

 

However, there is something inherently more terrifying about a man who purposefully plots and targets the mass death of innocents versus a random dumbass who has downed a couple too many.

[Belly Bob]

5 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Which majority Christian countries have rampant  poverty and government oppression? 

Look to the south, for a start. 

Then maybe east of Italy. 

[HawgGoneIt]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

I just think that this is too simple. 

The US has meddled in the affairs of many poor and oppressed states over the years.

Why is it that Muslim states in particular have been radicalized? 

 

Can we take that a step further and ask... Why is it that CERTAIN Muslim states in particular have been radicalized?

 

Perhaps it is the lack of separation of religion from governance that is the link. 

[Belly Bob]

1 minute ago, HawgGoneIt said:

 

Can we take that a step further and ask... Why is it that CERTAIN Muslim states in particular have been radicalized?

 

Perhaps it is the lack of separation of religion from governance that is the link. 

That seems plausible to me. 

[concha]

1 minute ago, HawgGoneIt said:

 

Can we take that a step further and ask... Why is it that CERTAIN Muslim states in particular have been radicalized?

 

Perhaps it is the lack of separation of religion from governance that is the link. 

Good grief but you are working hard.

So now it's because poverty and oppressive rule are Islamic-world only realities?

Say it...

I-S-L-A-M

[TheRealCAJ]

2 minutes ago, concha said:

And statistically you'd be spot on.

 

However, there is something inherently more terrifying about a man who purposefully plots and targets the mass death of innocents versus a random dumbass who has downed a couple too many.

I'm double dog scared of the man who has downed too many and buys a terrorist kit online for $19.95....they come in all forms.

Most of these younster terrorists are nothing but thugs and druggies.

My hunch is when we treat them as such we will be on the right track.

 

[concha]

BTW...

If oppressive rule is prevalent in Islamic countries... well... why is that?

[Belly Bob]

10 minutes ago, concha said:

The difference is something called "Islam".

Maybe.

But you have to explain, first, why there are so many peaceful Muslims and, second, why certain Muslim states have done better by all accounts than certain Christians states.

For example, everyone agrees (don't they?) that Spain under Muslim rule was more tolerant than Spain under Catholic rule. 

[HawgGoneIt]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

That seems plausible to me. 

 

I think it is the most likely cause, although the other factors weigh heavily into radicalizing the masses. I know we have moved away from the distant past part of the debate and that is fine, because as we know, Christians in general aren't having a massive radicalization movement currently. We can still learn something from that past though. The governments were monarchies and the Christian priests had great authority in these governments. Many manipulated the kings etc. and they did create these radical movements using their religious and political powers as such by offering the oppressed coinage for services rendered to the Lord.

One of the greatest moves of the western civilizations was creating mostly secular governments and accepting that there is strength in diversity.

 

How is what we are witnessing in, for instance, Iran and Syria, or what we witnessed in Iraq, much different than what we witnessed in western monarchies of the past? 

 

 

I wonder if the people in territories that were being pilfered by the church back then had similar discussions as we are having now, albeit using different mediums I'm sure. 

 

[concha]

12 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Maybe.

But you have to explain, first, why there are so many peaceful Muslims [because most are decent folk who choose to ignore the violent exhortations of their religious texts and focus on the more peaceful ones] and, second, why certain Muslim states have done better by all accounts than certain Christians states.[This is utterly irrelevant. We aren't talking about economics. We are talking about violence and tendencies toward it. What Muslim states are there that are economically noteworthy without oil in the equation?]

For example, everyone agrees (don't they?) that Spain under Muslim rule was more tolerant than Spain under Catholic rule. [That argument has been made and for a long period the Christian rulers of the world behaved in decidedly UN-Christian ways.  Under Islam exists the concept of dhimmitude, which basically allows for "people of the Book" (Christians and Jews) to practice their religions as long as they paid a tax. They lived as second-class citizens. Would that the likes of ISIS recognized the practice of dhimmitude rather than the choosing to follow the more violent exhortations of their texts.]

see above

[Belly Bob]

3 minutes ago, concha said:

see above

Interesting.

I'm clearly well out of my depth here.

I'd like to look into it more. 

[Belly Bob]

11 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

[...]

One of the greatest moves of the western civilizations was creating mostly secular governments and accepting that there is strength in diversity.

[...]

I agree that political philosophers are responsible for a big part of the West's success.

I just wonder why western political ideas haven't been adopted by Muslim countries in particular.

Turkey, for example, tried to found their country on Lockean principles. 

But recently they've been sliding away from them.

That calls out for an explanation. 

And it's not clear to me why concha (and others) are wrong when they say that it has something to do with Islam itself. 

[concha]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

 

And it's not clear to me why concha (and others) are wrong that it has something to do with Islam itself. 

 

Because I'm not fucking wrong.

Hope that helps.

[Belly Bob]

Just now, concha said:

Because I'm not fucking wrong.

That would explain it. 

[concha]

2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

That would explain it. 

Good. Now we're all clear.

Except for Hawg who seems slavishly devoted to denying the fucking obvious in favor of political correctness and moral equivalency.

[HawgGoneIt]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

I agree that political philosophers are responsible for a big part of the West's success.

I just wonder why western political ideas haven't been adopted by Muslim countries in particular.

Turkey, for example, tried to found their country on Lockean principles. 

But recently they've been sliding away from them.

That calls out for an explanation. 

And it's not clear to me why concha (and others) are wrong that it has something to do with Islam itself. 

 

Maybe Islam needs a reformation similar to the Lutheran Protestant reformation that Christianity went through. Before that movement the Catholic Priests held all the power and used it to manipulate the oppressed. People basically looked to the priests, rather than the bible,for their key to heaven. That is how much power and authority the priests had over the masses. 

Once the Protestant movement took hold, it's people held their own keys to heaven in the bible and thrived with good economies and strong middle class populations. 

 

I can't help but wonder if the power of the Imams and Ayatollah is not similar to that of the priests pre-Protestant reform. Of course I already tried to touch on the oppression and poverty part pertaining to the people in some of these countries. 

[concha]

43 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

 

Maybe Islam needs a reformation similar to the Lutheran Protestant reformation that Christianity went through. Before that movement the Catholic Priests held all the power and used it to manipulate the oppressed. People basically looked to the priests, rather than the bible,for their key to heaven. That is how much power and authority the priests had over the masses. 

Once the Protestant movement took hold, it's people held their own keys to heaven in the bible and thrived with good economies and strong middle class populations. 

 

I can't help but wonder if the power of the Imams and Ayatollah is not similar to that of the priests pre-Protestant reform. Of course I already tried to touch on the oppression and poverty part pertaining to the people in some of these countries. 

You continue to dance around the reality of this.

Poverty and oppression exist in lots of places.  The fact is that when you put Islam into the mix, they tend to produce violent elements.

And there is a key thing that ANY "reformation" of Islam won't do:  Change its holy texts to remove calls for violence (something lacking in the New Testament).

 

If these places were still Christian, do you think we'd have murderous nutballs yelling "Jesus Akbar" while they pushed the button on a detonator in the middle of the local market?

Of course not.

Jesus did not live a life that provided such an example (as Muhammed DID) nor does the New Testament provide the text to support such a movement (as the Quran and Hadith DO).

 

 

[HawgGoneIt]

16 minutes ago, concha said:

You continue to dance around the reality of this.

Poverty and oppression exist in lots of places.  The fact is that when you put Islam into the mix, they tend to produce violent elements.

And there is a key thing that ANY "reformation" of Islam won't do:  Change its holy texts to remove calls for violence (something lacking in the New Testament).

 

If these places were still Christian, do you think we'd have murderous nutballs yelling "Allahu Jesus" while they pushed the button on a detonator in the middle of the local market?

Of course not.

Jesus did not live a life that provided such an example (as Muhammed DID) nor does the New Testament provide the text to support such a movement (as the Quran and Hadith DO).

 

 

 

I'm saying that there is more to it than just Islam, which you can't seem to grasp. We can't just say ISLAM and that explains it all. Just like the silly argument that placing Islamic in front of the word terrorism solves some world problem.

There is no denying that Islam is a common theme in this current terrorism problem, but there also is no denying that the largest Islamic population in the world is majority peaceful and non-radical.

Tough talk and machine guns aren't going to solve the radical terrorist problem the world has right now. That's already been proven. And it only stands to further the radicalization of more and more people. 

What if, rather than destroy cities in Islamic countries, we found a way to help these people achieve a reformation and as a reward, that the majority began prospering economically? Obviously this is no quick fix, but it seems to be a lesson we can look back upon from the past of Christianity. 

It seems like the only proven solution from the past experiences of the world to me. You have to steal away the power that the "bad" religious leaders have over their followers by offering their followers an alternative that looks better for them economically, socially and spiritually. If their lives on earth get better, maybe their rush to leave earth for heaven dissipates with it. 

While we can argue that some radical terrorists are rich, we can't deny that a multitude of people in these radical countries are not. It's a lot easier to cultivate radicals from the poor if they are being shown that there is economic, social and spiritual gains to be earned by becoming radical. 

 

Anyway... These are complicated issues and they're obviously not easily solved at all.

Thanks for the debate, I suppose I finally came around to what I was hinting at with my Lao Tzu quotes earlier. It came by way of a long and winding road. 

[noonereal]

5 hours ago, HawgGoneIt said:

 

I'm saying that there is more to it than just Islam, which you can't seem to grasp. We can't just say ISLAM and that explains it all. Just like the silly argument that placing Islamic in front of the word terrorism solves some world problem.

There is no denying that Islam is a common theme in this current terrorism problem, but there also is no denying that the largest Islamic population in the world is majority peaceful and non-radical.

Tough talk and machine guns aren't going to solve the radical terrorist problem the world has right now. That's already been proven. And it only stands to further the radicalization of more and more people. 

What if, rather than destroy cities in Islamic countries, we found a way to help these people achieve a reformation and as a reward, that the majority began prospering economically? Obviously this is no quick fix, but it seems to be a lesson we can look back upon from the past of Christianity. 

It seems like the only proven solution from the past experiences of the world to me. You have to steal away the power that the "bad" religious leaders have over their followers by offering their followers an alternative that looks better for them economically, socially and spiritually. If their lives on earth get better, maybe their rush to leave earth for heaven dissipates with it. 

While we can argue that some radical terrorists are rich, we can't deny that a multitude of people in these radical countries are not. It's a lot easier to cultivate radicals from the poor if they are being shown that there is economic, social and spiritual gains to be earned by becoming radical. 

 

Anyway... These are complicated issues and they're obviously not easily solved at all.

Thanks for the debate, I suppose I finally came around to what I was hinting at with my Lao Tzu quotes earlier. It came by way of a long and winding road. 

he's not dumb, he does not want to grasp anything

he prefers to ignore what does not fit his beliefs and slant fact to bolster his beliefs

like his famious basement graphs 

anyone that is gonna deny the connection between poverty and violence is simply not being honest.

 

[noonereal]

6 hours ago, concha said:

 

Jesus did not live a life that provided such an example (as Muhammed DID) nor does the New Testament provide the text to support such a movement (as the Quran and Hadith DO).

 

 

what makes you think Jesus lived at all? 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/18/did-historical-jesus-exist-the-traditional-evidence-doesnt-hold-up/?utm_term=.a16d3d45a0b1

 

 

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, noonereal said:

what makes you think Jesus lived at all? 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/18/did-historical-jesus-exist-the-traditional-evidence-doesnt-hold-up/?utm_term=.a16d3d45a0b1

His former ancient history professor says that he's amazed that the Post published the piece and that it is an embarrassment as a work of scholarship. 

Click here to see why: http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2014/12/24/4154120.htm

One's former teachers almost never do this sort of thing. In fact, they tend to write overly positive reviews of their former students' work.

I think in general we should be especially skeptical of the work of scholars who publish their own books -- he's written two books, each self-published -- and especially when they haven't yet defended their dissertation.

He's listed as a doctoral student, even though he talks about his dissertation work in the past tense on his personal webpage. 

I don't know what's up with that. 

[Equality]

18 hours ago, concha said:

Islamists can point to many parts of the Quran and the example of Muhammed to justify their violence.

How many times in the New Testament are Christians called upon to conquer and subjugate others? Unlike Muhammed, how many attacks and military conflicts did Christ lead or call for? How many people did Christ enslave?

The moral equivalency is absurd at its core.

Have you ever read the bible ?

[Equality]

22 hours ago, TheRealCAJ said:

Fastest Growing Religion

Are we scared yet and should Islam be banned in the United States?

Reading this forum.....I think so.

What's about reading this forum ?

[Equality]

18 hours ago, concha said:

Good question.

Christianity spent four centuries in the shadows, being persecuted and spread only through the word of the faithful.

Islam was established and grew through violence virtually from day one, conquering 2/3 of the then Christian world before the Crusades even began.

 

Educate yourself.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=182259