Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Drummer61 said: Didn't they all,at one time advocate a wall,barrier and much tougher border restrictions....Either way and not since Eiisenhower,with Operation Wetback, has one president stopped this VIOLATION OF THE LAW......Now,Trump will try ....I say there is a way to stop this ILLEGAL INVASION .....Will not mention it on this forum, but we better stop it...How can anybody on this board go along and even advocate breaking American Law....I won't...... No one is advocating breaking the law, that’s a false flag and argument. But addressing the actual issues is whats NOT being done. The persistence on the wall is a dopey, emotion filled response. It fits the typical intellect of most Americans, so I’m not surprised there is such widespread support for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 14 minutes ago, Horsefly said: That wall won’t fix the problems that have been outlined as immigration issues..... Certainly won't solve all... But do you think you have a better 'step 1' solution? LOL An Obama big line in the sand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 21 minutes ago, Troll said: Certainly won't solve all... But do you think you have a better 'step 1' solution? LOL An Obama big line in the sand? No need to invoke Obama he’s not president any longer. I’m a big proponent in bringing the experts to the table to get their ideas. The DEA submitted a detailed report on how drugs enter the country (air, water and vehicles at legal checkpoints) and generally stated the US must target the international networks by US law enforcement. I’m not moved that he’s merely doing SOMETHING, at that level with the resources we have as a country I’m more impressed that our strategies and plans are effective and efficient and well thought out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 10 hours ago, Horsefly said: No need to invoke Obama he’s not president any longer. I’m a big proponent in bringing the experts to the table to get their ideas. The DEA submitted a detailed report on how drugs enter the country (air, water and vehicles at legal checkpoints) and generally stated the US must target the international networks by US law enforcement. I’m not moved that he’s merely doing SOMETHING, at that level with the resources we have as a country I’m more impressed that our strategies and plans are effective and efficient and well thought out. well that's all good, but you still need a protected border first..... or did you forget that part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, Troll said: well that's all good, but you still need a protected border first..... or did you forget that part? We have one already, about 600 miles of manmade barriers. You do know that right? Do you know how many years we’ve had one? The DEA says drugs are being smuggled in from legal checkpoints by land, sea and air and your fix is to spend billions to build a wall. Come on troll 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Horsefly said: We have one already, about 600 miles of manmade barriers. You do know that right? Do you know how many years we’ve had one? The DEA says drugs are being smuggled in from legal checkpoints by land, sea and air and your fix is to spend billions to build a wall. Come on troll First, the wall as I see it, is to secure the border (not specific to drugs).....and people having free roam are more the issue here, than any drugs (so try not to get sidetracked by MSM or statistics). Second, we don't already have a secure border, sections of wall in place or not.. Third, if you want to talk dollar cost....then any ROI on investment vs current costs will blow that argument up quickly... Yup....C'mon Horse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, Troll said: First, the wall as I see it, is to secure the border (not specific to drugs).....and people having free roam are more the issue here, than any drugs (so try not to get sidetracked by MSM or statistics). Second, we don't already have a secure border, sections of wall in place or not.. Third, if you want to talk dollar cost....then any ROI on investment vs current costs will blow that argument up quickly... Yup....C'mon Horse Remember when we talked what is an efficient and effective use of $$? Overstaying visas is a primary driver for Illegal immigration and drugs smuggling is accomplished through other means than crossing the desert. A wall won’t fix these issues. It’s not an efficient and effective measure. But clearly trump has stated it will curtail these problems Please do an ROI, bc the actual return is miniscule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Just now, Horsefly said: Remember when we talked what is an efficient and effective use of $$? A wall won’t fix these issues. It’s not an efficient and effective measure. Anyone who has ever done any accounting will understand that a block of concrete (or steel LOL) is far more cost efficient than manpower or high end technology. Prove otherwise. Again won't fix entirely, but is needed as a first line of defense, and IS extremely effective as a measure. Prove otherwise. hope that's not 'all' you got...… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 18 minutes ago, Troll said: Anyone who has ever done any accounting will understand that a block of concrete (or steel LOL) is far more cost efficient than manpower or high end technology. Prove otherwise. Again won't fix entirely, but is needed as a first line of defense, and IS extremely effective as a measure. Prove otherwise. hope that's not 'all' you got...… The wall is not replacing personnel its supplementing them. (We are hiring more agents not less) It’s not like a home fence where you put up a wall and leave. So please, post the projected ROI for the $5B fence How will the fence help curb the flow of drugs hidden in compartments of cars and trucks coming through checkpoints? How will it curb the flow of drugs coming though air port customs when cartels have in side agents helping them smuggle them in? How will a fence curb the over staying visas? 😂 (I can always tell when your arguments lose steam as to revert to posting horse pics instead of data to back up your position) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Just now, Horsefly said: The wall is not replacing personnel its supplementing them. (We are highering more agents not less) It’s not like a home fence where you put up a wall and leave. 😂 You are cross tying items...and throwing in a red herring So what we currently hire more? No matter how you slice it, more wall means less staff required to monitor the border...and concrete is cheaper than HR. 7 minutes ago, Horsefly said: Now again, show the projected ROI If you insist....(must have missed your first request) About a year old or so, so you can adjust accordingly LOL New FAIR Study: Illegal Immigration Costs $116 billion Annually September 27, 2017 | IRLI Staff Brunt of Costs Fall on State and Local Taxpayers (Washington, D.C.) - Illegal immigration to the U.S. costs federal, state and local taxpayers a staggering net cost of $116 billion a year - an increase of some $16 billion compared to previous estimates - according to a new study released by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). The study is the most comprehensive to date on the cost to federal, state and local taxpayers of the nation's 12.5 million illegal immigrants and their 4.2 million citizen children. Costs Soar The report, “The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers,” examines the cost of illegal immigration through a detailed analysis of federal, state and local programs that are available to the nation’s illegal immigrant population, their U.S.-born children, or accessed via fraud. The study tallies the impact on education, medical, justice/enforcement, welfare and other government programs. The report notes that the $116 billion cost of illegal immigration falls on state and local taxpayers disproportionately – by a ratio of roughly 2 to 1 – with state and local expenditures totaling $88.9 billion and Federal expenditures totaling $45.8 billion, with only approximately $19 billion recouped in taxes. Taxes Paid Inadequate The staggering total costs of illegal immigrants and their children outweigh the taxes paid to federal and state governments by a ratio of roughly 7 to 1, with costs at nearly $135 billion compared to tax revenues at nearly $19 billion. All told, the nearly $135 billion paid out by federal and state and local taxpayers to cover the cost of the presence of 12.5 million illegal aliens and their 4.2 million citizen children amounts to approximately $8,075 per illegal alien and citizen child prior to taxes paid, or $6,940 per person after taxes are paid. On the federal level, medical ($17.14 billion) is by far the highest cost, with law enforcement coming second ($13.15 billion) and general government services ($8 billion) third. At the state and local level, education ($44.4 billion) was by far the largest expense, followed by general public services ($18.5 billion) and medical ($12.1 billion). The study also includes cost and tax revenue estimates per state. The top three states based on total cost to state taxpayers for illegal immigrants and their children: California ($23 billion); Texas ($10.9 billion), and New York ($7.5 billion). “Clearly, the cost of doing nothing to stop illegal immigration is far too high,” said FAIR executive director Dan Stein. ------------------------------------------ Sure looks like 15B has a pretty good chance in the ROI dept. considering the CURRENT AND RECURRING COSTS to the tune of many multiples of such... No it's not me hitting you.....it's those current cost dollars... PS: note Future ROI dollars are not even needed to justify immediate relief....or any 'justification'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 38 minutes ago, Horsefly said: The wall is not replacing personnel its supplementing them. (We are hiring more agents not less) It’s not like a home fence where you put up a wall and leave. So please, post the projected ROI for the $5B fence How will the fence help curb the flow of drugs hidden in compartments of cars and trucks coming through checkpoints? How will it curb the flow of drugs coming though air port customs when cartels have in side agents helping them smuggle them in? How will a fence curb the over staying visas? 😂 (I can always tell when your arguments lose steam as to revert to posting horse pics instead of data to back up your position) I can’t even reply to your most recent post b/c of all the bs pics. This is laughable even for you A quick glance, it summarizes the costs of illegal immigration but doesn’t highlight that many are from overstayed visas not those crossing borders illegally. There is a distinction as the wall only addresses one type. The other ASSumption you make, is that I advocate doing nothing.( Your post makes it clear something is better than not doing anything. ) it took me 5 min to take your junk and throw it back over the wall...get it? “wall” 😂 here’s a financial insight: for such a large project there are typically cost and schedule overruns. I would not be surprised if the actual costs was significantly higher. I doubt a thorough risk assessment was done on this project, b/c if it was there would be a complete budget package on congress’ desks that addressed the whole illegal immigration problem and cost to fix the problem. Even broken out in phases to spread out the costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Horsefly said: I can’t even reply to your most recent post b/c of all the bs pics. This is laughable even for you A quick glance, it summarizes the costs of illegal immigration but doesn’t highlight that many are from overstayed visas not those crossing borders illegally. There is a distinction as the wall only addtesses one type. The other ASSumption you make, is that I advocate doing nothing.( Your post makes it clear something is better than not doing anything. ) it took me 5 min to take your junk and throw it back over the wall...get it? “wall” 😂 Keep tossing.... that's well over 100 billion dollar wall (being generous)…. toss in your overstays.... toss in whatever you like....you STILL have not gotten anything back over... what you are left with, is the fact that even if the wall only puts a dent in the issue, that dent will most certainly pay for itself immediately. No need to even delve into the future for payback... And I never projected that you think we should do 'nothing'..... What I said was "name a better first step" or explain how securing the border should not be the "first step"... Pretty simple...no? (btw if pics cause you issues I will leave them out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, Troll said: Keep tossing.... that's well over 100 billion dollar wall (being generous)…. toss in your overstays.... toss in whatever you like....you STILL have not gotten anything back over... what you are left with, is the fact that even if the wall only puts a dent in the issue, that dent will most certainly pay for itself immediately. No need to even delve into the future for payback... And I never projected that you think we should do 'nothing'..... What I said was "name a better first step" or explain how securing the border should not be the "first step"... Pretty simple...no? (btw if pics cause you issues I will leave them out) I just gave you one yesterday, you attack the source of the problem.(that was the DEAs recommendation sans details on how) If it’s drug smuggling at the checkpoints, maybe it’s increased security, if it’s over stayed visas, maybe increase ICEs presence in deporting these people back immediately. the problem is either we haven’t done a very good with a risk assessment in HOW to fix the complete issue or trump has done a piss poor job sharing that with the public. I’m going with the latter. i told you yesterday we have too many resources to just throw $$ at a problem and hope it’s fixed. Get it right and stop the bs posturing to appease the gotdamn political base!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, Horsefly said: I just gave you one yesterday, you attack the source of the problem. If it’s drug smuggling at the checkpoints, maybe it’s increased security, if it’s over stayed visas, maybe increase ICEs presence in deporting these people back immediately. the problem is either we haven’t done a very good with a risk assessment in HOW to fix the issues or trump has done a piss poor job sharing that with the public. I’m going with the latter. The source of the 'problem' is the people not some drugs crossing... and guess what....a secure border first will address all of the problems... what use is deporting any overstay, when they can just walk right back in? First things first....remember? Why do you refuse to even address the real issues? I'm guessing it's T aversion.... since you happened to let that one slip.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM IRONMAN Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 "but what if they promise not to walk back in and stay in Mexico?" -every liberal ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 17 minutes ago, Troll said: The source of the 'problem' is the people not some drugs crossing... and guess what....a secure border first will address all of them... what use is deporting any overstay, when they can just walk right back in? First things first....remember? Why do you refuse to even address the real issues? I'm guessing it's T aversion.... since you happened to let that one slip.... No it will not. The folks are smuggling tons of this stuff into the country, it’s a multi billion $$ business. I don’t even need the DEA to tell me that it’s coming in large loads to make the trips worthwhile other than relying on human mules. Those crossing the border illegally has decreased by over 80% since 2000. wanna make it smaller? Penalize business for hiring them. Remove the incentive and they’d be less likely to come here. but wait a minute, who do you think has the ear of the gov? Who do you think relies on cheap labor to maximize profits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanscript Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, Horsefly said: No it will not. The folks are smuggling tons of this stuff into the country, it’s a multi billion $$ business. I don’t even need the DEA to tell me that it’s coming in large loads to make the trips worthwhile other than relying on human mules. Those crossing the border illegally has decreased by over 80% since 2000. wanna make it smaller? Penalize business for hiring them. Remove the incentive and they’d be less likely to come here. but wait a minute, who do you think has the ear of the gov? Who do you think relies on cheap labor to maximize profits? Uh, I'll go out on a limb here and guess Forrest Trump and his buddies at Nightmare-a-Lago? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 minute ago, stanscript said: Uh, I'll go out on a limb here and guess Forrest Trump and his buddies at Nightmare-a-Lago? Bingo!! The wall is a scam and trump knows it. If he wanted to stop illegals you remove the incentive. Put heavy fines on business for hiring violations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concha Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Horsefly said: Put heavy fines on business for hiring violations. I'm all for this. And an extensive, modern border barrier. They are not mutually exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanscript Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 25 minutes ago, concha said: I'm all for this. And an extensive, modern border barrier. They are not mutually exclusive. Good Morning Jr. Cadet. You are half-way there for fining businesses over hiring violations. Building a great wall is a solution that is over 500 years old. It didn't work in China and won't work now. Seems to me that better technology and more border agents is the answer. If the incentive is great enough people will go over the wall, thru the wall, tunnel under the wall or stay on past their VISA. Border crossings have continued to drop substantially over the last 10 years or so and are not a national emergency. More people overstay their VISAs than cross the border illegally. An airtight wall (impossible) wouldn't stop half the people coming in "illegally.". Building a wall is a waste of taxpayer money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 37 minutes ago, Horsefly said: No it will not. The folks are smuggling tons of this stuff into the country, it’s a multi billion $$ business. I don’t even need the DEA to tell me that it’s coming in large loads to make the trips worthwhile other than relying on human mules. Those crossing the border illegally has decreased by over 80% since 2000. wanna make it smaller? Penalize business for hiring them. Remove the incentive and they’d be less likely to come here. but wait a minute, who do you think has the ear of the gov? Who do you think relies on cheap labor to maximize profits? Smuggling to who? how are the distribution systems set up? And again the illegal people are the largest issue... While we already have plenty of laws on the books suggesting what you say about hiring ilegals....your argument is baseless....as everyone I know who is against illegal immigration agrees with you and these laws... And you can stop blaming the government, for said 'reliance, when the governments position is that they are attempting to correct this...and only enforce the current laws... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, stanscript said: Good Morning Jr. C Building a great wall is a solution that is over 500 years old. It didn't work in China and won't work now. Funny but there are many of the opinion that it worked very well for centuries for China.... Funny that China now still owns not only all of that border wall.... but also much land beyond it.... what are the 'stats' on that one displaying failure? I'm sure you could conjure some up..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Troll said: Smuggling to who? how are the distribution systems set up? And again the illegal people are the largest issue... While we already have plenty of laws on the books suggesting what you say about hiring ilegals....your argument is baseless....as everyone I know who is against illegal immigration agrees with you and these laws... And you can stop blaming the government, for said 'reliance, when the governments position is that they are attempting to correct this...and only enforce the current laws... Smuggling to drug dealers here. Surely you don’t think the American drug dealers and distributors are only illegals? Trump’s “attempt” to correct this is what’s in dispute. I think the effort is misguided and weak compared to his level of energy he’s putting forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concha Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, stanscript said: Good Morning Jr. Cadet. You are half-way there for fining businesses over hiring violations. Building a great wall is a solution that is over 500 years old. It didn't work in China and won't work now. Seems to me that better technology and more border agents is the answer. If the incentive is great enough people will go over the wall, thru the wall, tunnel under the wall or stay on past their VISA. Border crossings have continued to drop substantially over the last 10 years or so and are not a national emergency. More people overstay their VISAs than cross the border illegally. An airtight wall (impossible) wouldn't stop half the people coming in "illegally.". Building a wall is a waste of taxpayer money. If you are trying to act like you're smart, you might want to work on your history. The Great Wall, and its antecedents dating back two or three millennia, were instrumental in keeping the horse peoples out of China for a long time. Walls, barriers and fences are still used used today for security in this country and all over the world. The Clinton compound in Chappaqua NY has one. George Soros' estate in the Hamptons has a massive wall. Nancy Pelosi's Napa vineyard has a wall. And scores of countries around the world use them including building them in modern times. The very notion that walls don't work is, quite frankly, stupid. REALLY stupid. Walls create time, effort and expense impediments that allow guards and technology to be more effective. Fine companies for hiring illegals. All for it. Go after visas overstays. All for it. Neither of the above are an argument against a wall. They are simply other issues to be addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 9 minutes ago, Horsefly said: Smuggling to drug dealers here. Surely you don’t think the American drug dealers and distributors are only illegals? Trump’s “attempt” to correct this is what’s in dispute. I think the effort is misguided and weak compared to his level of energy he’s putting forth. Easy borders are easy connections and distribution, and lend to the trade regardless of nationality. And when you are 'already illegal' or have no debt due to a nation, you have less incentive to follow it's laws...you could probably even check the stats on that one LOL. And not sure why you keep injecting Trump into a debate over wall requirements and effectiveness.... Both are actually predetermined and a given...… so I guess your only argument here is with Trump's implementation...… At least it's better to admit that, than to admit willful ignorance....🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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