NASCAR is in the toilet

[HawgGoneIt]

For example, I was at the recent Speedfest event where short track racers are mostly young "up and comers" looking to break through into NASCAR, but, due to lack of t.v. coverage and sponsor intervention, and even overall cost of equipment, all types of characters are still involved. 

Talked a while with current NASCAR driver, former NASCAR Busch series, rookie of the year, Kyle Busch and then former NASCAR driver from the early 90's former NASCAR Winston Cup rookie of the year, Rich Bickle.

Kyle is about as "rough" as they get in NASCAR today which is pretty much G-rated and sponsor minded. He'd give you the straight from the book answers to what he expected from his car today.

Rich had no hugely apparent sponsors. Leaned back against his old scratched up car, a dirty old piglet doll zip tied to the roll cage inside, wearing an old and beat up leather jacket while chain smoking  Pall Mall cigarettes. Told me and I quote:

"I was late getting here so I said fuck it. Skipped practice." Through a chuckle, "Fucking still snowing in Wisconsin, held me up."

Takes a big drag off a mostly gone cigarette. 

"Unloaded my car and went straight to qualify. Piece of shit bottomed out in turn two so I'm starting back here from the back." 

Laughing a little, lights new cigarette from the last one and takes a huge drag.

"I'm gonna give em hell anyway. Made some adjustments to the springs and shit since so I expect to gain several spots right away." 

 

Two totally different worlds more or less. Still apparent on the smaller series like ARCA/CRA while mostly totally gone in NASCAR.

[954gator]

22 hours ago, TheMaximumHornetSting said:

I haven't seen F1 racing in a minute... 

I got a few channels that show it...

It’s pretty intense man.   Just shows how crazy fast that closed wheel Porsche was. Anyways F1 took that record down already this year, but it is damn fast.   Here’s an old record holder with a v10 f1 car (best sounding F1s by far).

 

[Fred]

11 hours ago, HawgGoneIt said:

NASCAR really is better as a live spectator sport. It was novel in the old days as they'd only show a race or two per year on t.v. which helped to generate traffic to the stands to see what the hooplah was about.

 They've certainly tried moving away from their "roots" by taking a lot of the "extra-curricular" stuff away as they've intentionally shifted to a more sponsor driven "face of the sponsor" type of sport. In this day and time, sponsors answer to social pressures, so the rough old grisly codger with a cigarette in one hand, beer in another head butting his arch rival after getting out his car after the race has left the building. 

Anyway, over this shift from spectator sport to t.v. sport has had it's problems for sure. The drivers with big personalities have to appear more subdued for the t.v. audience and then something is lost in the translation for most of the older school fans. 

I think the move away from cars that at least have a passing resemblance to cars you can buy has had an impact.  The cars of today are hand built purpose driven machines that have a body shell crafted to sort of kind of maybe if you squint real hard it might resemble a real car.  Back in the day, the cars on the track were much closer to their street car brethren.  Admittedly an extreme example the Daytona Superbird was pretty darn close to the car on the track.  True there were only the minimum number built but you could still run across one on the street and that was somewhat both exciting and a draw.

I think NASCAR tried to play to too big of an audience with too broad a spectrum of people and in doing so lost track of their roots.  Again, back in the day when Atlanta had two races, I'd heard that it was one of if not the largest market for NASCAR.  They took a race away and the fan base here started deteriorating.  Their decision to put their Hall of Fame in Charlotte was a mistake as well.  After Atlanta came up with the idea, the France family decided to pander to the drivers clustered in NC.  I've read that attendance is suffering.  Can you imagine the attendance if the HoF was around Centennial Olympic Park with the other museums and the Aquarium?  With all the convention visitors we have the attendance would have been much higher and the synergies with all of the other attractions would have meant people going in that maybe weren't fans that would become fans.  Oh well, NASCAR has shot themselves in the foot in plenty of other ways.  Why should this be different?

[HawgGoneIt]

2 hours ago, Fred said:

I think the move away from cars that at least have a passing resemblance to cars you can buy has had an impact.  The cars of today are hand built purpose driven machines that have a body shell crafted to sort of kind of maybe if you squint real hard it might resemble a real car.  Back in the day, the cars on the track were much closer to their street car brethren.  Admittedly an extreme example the Daytona Superbird was pretty darn close to the car on the track.  True there were only the minimum number built but you could still run across one on the street and that was somewhat both exciting and a draw.

I think NASCAR tried to play to too big of an audience with too broad a spectrum of people and in doing so lost track of their roots.  Again, back in the day when Atlanta had two races, I'd heard that it was one of if not the largest market for NASCAR.  They took a race away and the fan base here started deteriorating.  Their decision to put their Hall of Fame in Charlotte was a mistake as well.  After Atlanta came up with the idea, the France family decided to pander to the drivers clustered in NC.  I've read that attendance is suffering.  Can you imagine the attendance if the HoF was around Centennial Olympic Park with the other museums and the Aquarium?  With all the convention visitors we have the attendance would have been much higher and the synergies with all of the other attractions would have meant people going in that maybe weren't fans that would become fans.  Oh well, NASCAR has shot themselves in the foot in plenty of other ways.  Why should this be different?

Certainly as more and larger sponsors got involved and the money/marketing side shifted, so did "fairness" as it pertained to lobbying to keep the cars all mostly equal aerodynamically and otherwise. Advertisers/sponsors and teams all stand to lose huge investments, so, like most every other thing... Money ruins most sports.

I've heard tales of Richard Petty using some type of marine outboard transmission because it turns the opposite way of car transmissions. This supposedly helped keep the center of gravity on the car more "in the track" so he had better downforce and grip. 

Today nothing anywhere close to that could be possible. The idea was to shift as much of the racing as possible over to the driver and to take the "cheating" out of it all.

Hence we now have "cars" that all share almost identical body styles outside of the front clip. The engines all produce almost identical horsepower. The "cheating" comes down to the smallest little sneaky things, until it gets discovered and rule changes are forthcoming. It supposedly comes down to chassis set up and driver abilities thus making it better for race teams and sponsors alike. 

Easier to decide where you want to invest your efforts as a sponsor when you can identify which driver will have your brand in the spotlight for longer on flat screens all across the country. If NASCAR was to let teams do what they wanted, the sponsor dollars would dry back up for most all of the teams not knowing the tricks certain teams may be using.

 

 

[HSFBfan]

On 2/17/2019 at 2:33 PM, HooverOutlaw said:

Daytona has empty sears.

They have removed seats as well. Place looked packed though. They said over 100k were there. 

But yes nascar has been changed and not for the better 

[HSFBfan]

4 hours ago, Fred said:

I think the move away from cars that at least have a passing resemblance to cars you can buy has had an impact.  The cars of today are hand built purpose driven machines that have a body shell crafted to sort of kind of maybe if you squint real hard it might resemble a real car.  Back in the day, the cars on the track were much closer to their street car brethren.  Admittedly an extreme example the Daytona Superbird was pretty darn close to the car on the track.  True there were only the minimum number built but you could still run across one on the street and that was somewhat both exciting and a draw.

I think NASCAR tried to play to too big of an audience with too broad a spectrum of people and in doing so lost track of their roots.  Again, back in the day when Atlanta had two races, I'd heard that it was one of if not the largest market for NASCAR.  They took a race away and the fan base here started deteriorating.  Their decision to put their Hall of Fame in Charlotte was a mistake as well.  After Atlanta came up with the idea, the France family decided to pander to the drivers clustered in NC.  I've read that attendance is suffering.  Can you imagine the attendance if the HoF was around Centennial Olympic Park with the other museums and the Aquarium?  With all the convention visitors we have the attendance would have been much higher and the synergies with all of the other attractions would have meant people going in that maybe weren't fans that would become fans.  Oh well, NASCAR has shot themselves in the foot in plenty of other ways.  Why should this be different?

Nascar also screwed up by getting rid of tracks like Darlington and such to go to California and Las vegas. Their roots are in the south and they sold out to expand west. 

[HSFBfan]

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/ryan-inside-story-secret-deal-110059343.html

[TheMaximumHornetSting]

4 hours ago, Fred said:

I think the move away from cars that at least have a passing resemblance to cars you can buy has had an impact.  The cars of today are hand built purpose driven machines that have a body shell crafted to sort of kind of maybe if you squint real hard it might resemble a real car.  Back in the day, the cars on the track were much closer to their street car brethren.  Admittedly an extreme example the Daytona Superbird was pretty darn close to the car on the track.  True there were only the minimum number built but you could still run across one on the street and that was somewhat both exciting and a draw.

I think NASCAR tried to play to too big of an audience with too broad a spectrum of people and in doing so lost track of their roots.  Again, back in the day when Atlanta had two races, I'd heard that it was one of if not the largest market for NASCAR.  They took a race away and the fan base here started deteriorating.  Their decision to put their Hall of Fame in Charlotte was a mistake as well.  After Atlanta came up with the idea, the France family decided to pander to the drivers clustered in NC.  I've read that attendance is suffering.  Can you imagine the attendance if the HoF was around Centennial Olympic Park with the other museums and the Aquarium?  With all the convention visitors we have the attendance would have been much higher and the synergies with all of the other attractions would have meant people going in that maybe weren't fans that would become fans.  Oh well, NASCAR has shot themselves in the foot in plenty of other ways.  Why should this be different?

For the life of me Idk why everyone wants everything in Charlotte now... 

They'd be better off going to Atlanta... 

[AztecPadre]

On 2/17/2019 at 11:33 AM, HooverOutlaw said:

Daytona has empty sears.

Aren't sears pretty empty everywhere?

[I AM IRONMAN]

not a racing fan but I could see Formula One being more interesting when they're ripping through city streets and making all sorts of turrns versus 4 left's 500 x LOL

[Exocet 98]

1 hour ago, I AM IRONMAN said:

not a racing fan but I could see Formula One being more interesting when they're ripping through city streets and making all sorts of turrns versus 4 left's 500 x LOL

F1 is a 2 team series , how many lead changes per race does F1 have compared to NASCAR ? LOL!!

[Fred]

On 2/19/2019 at 7:06 PM, I AM IRONMAN said:

not a racing fan but I could see Formula One being more interesting when they're ripping through city streets and making all sorts of turrns versus 4 left's 500 x LOL

Just a totally different style of racing.  I do prefer to watch when it is in a city vs a racetrack.  As to 4 left turns, I think it is a matter of recognizing what you are looking at.  F1 cars weigh a 1/3 of what a NASCAR car does.  When you get 3 wide with only a hand's clearance between cars and the wall with others pushing or bumping in that size car, I don't know about you but my adrenaline starts pumping.

[Fred]

On 2/19/2019 at 12:41 PM, HawgGoneIt said:

Certainly as more and larger sponsors got involved and the money/marketing side shifted, so did "fairness" as it pertained to lobbying to keep the cars all mostly equal aerodynamically and otherwise. Advertisers/sponsors and teams all stand to lose huge investments, so, like most every other thing... Money ruins most sports.

I've heard tales of Richard Petty using some type of marine outboard transmission because it turns the opposite way of car transmissions. This supposedly helped keep the center of gravity on the car more "in the track" so he had better downforce and grip. 

Today nothing anywhere close to that could be possible. The idea was to shift as much of the racing as possible over to the driver and to take the "cheating" out of it all.

Hence we now have "cars" that all share almost identical body styles outside of the front clip. The engines all produce almost identical horsepower. The "cheating" comes down to the smallest little sneaky things, until it gets discovered and rule changes are forthcoming. It supposedly comes down to chassis set up and driver abilities thus making it better for race teams and sponsors alike. 

Easier to decide where you want to invest your efforts as a sponsor when you can identify which driver will have your brand in the spotlight for longer on flat screens all across the country. If NASCAR was to let teams do what they wanted, the sponsor dollars would dry back up for most all of the teams not knowing the tricks certain teams may be using.

While what you say is true for the sponsors, I don't think it holds true for the fans that the sponsors are trying to reach.  With the cars basically identical and the motors having to meet the same specs, it took the manufacturers and their loyal fans out of the picture.  I remember when for some models, the manufacturers made design changes specifically so the NASCAR racers would benefit.  That would pay off for them when their teams won big with people buying the showroom version for a little bit of the shared excitement of driving the winning race car albeit a much tamed version.  Now the whole Ford, Dodge, Chevy/GM (I miss the other divisions!), Toyota (Toyota! In NASCAR?  Blasphemy!) competition doesn't really mean anything.

There is always lots of talk on the TV coverage about the team effort to put a driver in the winner's circle.  I like it better when the team effort was clearer.  Bill Elliot was a great drive but he won a lot of races because Ernie knew how to get the most out of those Ford big blocks AND do it in a manner that allowed the engine to make it 500 miles.  Those days seem to be gone and I think the sport is poorer for it.  You didn't seem to get the dynasties of consecutive wins that happen now.  True the cream would rise to the top but you didn't expect Richard or Dale or Buddy or Fireball or any of them to win 6 or 7 championships in a row.  2 in a row was great and 3 was rare.  More teams winning equals a more diverse and rabid fan base.

[Fred]

I will say there is one part of the standardization of NASCAR I absolutely love.  I love the in car cameras and I really like the telemetry that lets you see speed, engine RPMs, braking, etc.

[HawgGoneIt]

2 hours ago, Fred said:

While what you say is true for the sponsors, I don't think it holds true for the fans that the sponsors are trying to reach.  With the cars basically identical and the motors having to meet the same specs, it took the manufacturers and their loyal fans out of the picture.  I remember when for some models, the manufacturers made design changes specifically so the NASCAR racers would benefit.  That would pay off for them when their teams won big with people buying the showroom version for a little bit of the shared excitement of driving the winning race car albeit a much tamed version.  Now the whole Ford, Dodge, Chevy/GM (I miss the other divisions!), Toyota (Toyota! In NASCAR?  Blasphemy!) competition doesn't really mean anything.

There is always lots of talk on the TV coverage about the team effort to put a driver in the winner's circle.  I like it better when the team effort was clearer.  Bill Elliot was a great drive but he won a lot of races because Ernie knew how to get the most out of those Ford big blocks AND do it in a manner that allowed the engine to make it 500 miles.  Those days seem to be gone and I think the sport is poorer for it.  You didn't seem to get the dynasties of consecutive wins that happen now.  True the cream would rise to the top but you didn't expect Richard or Dale or Buddy or Fireball or any of them to win 6 or 7 championships in a row.  2 in a row was great and 3 was rare.  More teams winning equals a more diverse and rabid fan base.

I agree, many fans have become alienated or turned off the more commercialized the sport has gotten. Clearly they aren't exactly trying to reach the same fans they once did. Don't you think?

Considering t.v. time for 4 hours. Basically a huge billboard saying, for example, "PrepGridiron.Com" flying around the track for hour upon hour on either NBC, FOX or one of their large cable affiliates. 

The rule changes and everything else have been tuned toward getting bigger sponsors with more money invested to quantify the difference between the price of a 30 second spot during Golden Girls, Andy Griffith Show etc., and basically hours of t.v. time each and every week as a billboard piloted by Chase Elliott or Joey Lagano as Jeff Gordon and Daryl Waltrip give their corny coverage and provide cover for Jimmie Johnson or Lagano after he wrecks half the field by telling us we didn't see what we thought we saw. 

As that happened the stars of the sport had to shift their concentration away from being "fan friendly" to being "sponsor friendly." They're following the money plain and simple. It has clearly turned off HooverOutlaw and HSFBfan, while guys like me are holdouts that just look for other angles to appreciate the sport from. 

I don't think they exactly care about a rabid fan base in the stands anymore. They're catering to a more sophisticated crowd sat in front of the t.v. sipping wine or craft beers rather than drinking natty daddies and smoking Winstons. Just a look across the board at the sponsors proves the shift in target audience.

[LaReb]

I am/was a big nascar fan what really started the demise for me was when they stopped rewarding drivers for consistency through out the season for the cup and went to the playoff system then upgraded that and so on. Now it’s not about getting the best finish you can every week but let’s just win 1 race and we are in the playoffs. I’m a Earnhardt sr fan since the mid 80’s when I saw my first race at Daytona and the  days of old like that are gone the drivers nowadays just don’t seem to have the passion those guys did back then I mean we have 18 year old drivers in the top league now instead of spending a few years establishing themselves in the minor leagues of nascar