Folsom v. St. Mary's D1 SJS FINAL

[ThunderRam]

50 minutes ago, Pops said:

Ithe question is whether Pitt jumped central with a good showing tonight (and, I suppose, if whether the north ought to send s hot Folsom or a depleted DLS team to open.  I think DLS has earned it on the field but does the committeninvoke the Johnny Stanton rule?

 

In 2009, Rocklin had a strong argument to go Open over DLS, but an injury to their star QB in the section final was a strong factor in the CIF sending DLS instead.

Rocklin was 14-0 with marquee wins over a section champ (Nevada Union) and Nationally ranked Grant Union while DLS had 2 losses, including 24 pt loss to DBP, and no real marquee wins to match Rocklin.

The QB injury certainly played a factor, as did the fact that DLS had been bypassed by Grant Union the previous season.

I highly doubt Robinson's injury carries near the same weight and Folsom's best win doesn't compare. They might have had a decent argument had Coeur d'Alene won Idaho's 5A, buy they lost in the Final to Highland.

[ThunderRam]

1 hour ago, NorCalRuss said:

Sac looked pretty good this year against Folsom also. Several teams played Folsom better than ST Mary’s for whatever that’s worth. 

 

Sac just matches up well with Folsom for whatever reason. Also, Sac blew a game they easily could have won against Del Campo and had they won it, I think they would have beaten Granite Bay who just won D2 section tonight. GB's offense is anemic. Very good defense, but Sac had the athletes and speed to put up some points against them.

Speaking of GB, if they had any sort of offense they would be on the same level as Folsom.

[Pops]

32 minutes ago, ThunderRam said:

 

In 2009, Rocklin had a strong argument to go Open over DLS, but an injury to their star QB in the section final was a strong factor in the CIF sending DLS instead.

Rocklin was 14-0 with marquee wins over a section champ (Nevada Union) and Nationally ranked Grant Union while DLS had 2 losses, including 24 pt loss to DBP, and no real marquee wins to match Rocklin.

The QB injury certainly played a factor, as did the fact that DLS had been bypassed by Grant Union the previous season.

I highly doubt Robinson's injury carries near the same weight and Folsom's best win doesn't compare. They might have had a decent argument had Coeur d'Alene won Idaho's 5A, buy they lost in the Final to Highland.

Yep

i think DLS was also clearly a much better team at that point.  Their first 5 games were

beat serra 14-7 (trailed by 7 at half)

lost to MNC DBP by 24

lost to Lakeland (fl) in 2 OT

beat amador valley after trailing by 11 at half 

beat Monte Vista 28-21 after being tied at half

they were much better in game 5 than 1 — was bart Houston’s first start and a newly healthy Teron Ward ran for 398 yards, but still improved enough to beat same Monte Vista team 44-7 in playoffs (besides beating Serra and av 45-7 and 56-0 the next season).  That was start of resurgence that saw them finish no lower than 6th in country next 6 years after going 56-10-2 thru Lakeland 

but rocklin for sure had a case and I agree that injury was very likely at least s discussion point 

 

[ThunderRam]

2 minutes ago, Pops said:

but rocklin for sure had a case and I agree that injury was very likely at least s discussion point

 

It had to be the ONLY point. Otherwise, DLS should have had no argument.

14-0 versus 12-2 w/ 1 loss being a blowout = EDGE Rocklin

1 win over SJS D1 Champ & 1 win over Nationally ranked team versus no marquee wins = EDGE Rocklin

There really was no justification for DLS getting the nod based upon the above. The injury gave the CIF an out and they took it.

Point was, they do consider those types of things. But Rocklin or any team for the most part losing their QB is a much bigger deal than DLS losing their RB. The CIF won't consider it a big deal.

[Ararar]

6 hours ago, Pops said:

Yep

Would replace the next tier in section — that choice is available to SS, correct?

your thoughts?

It’s not available because the SS doesn’t have an open division.The City Section went to an open format this year and are expected to send the Open runner up Crenshaw instead of the D1 champ San Fernando 

[Pops]

6 hours ago, ThunderRam said:

 

It had to be the ONLY point. Otherwise, DLS should have had no argument.

14-0 versus 12-2 w/ 1 loss being a blowout = EDGE Rocklin

1 win over SJS D1 Champ & 1 win over Nationally ranked team versus no marquee wins = EDGE Rocklin

There really was no justification for DLS getting the nod based upon the above. The injury gave the CIF an out and they took it.

Point was, they do consider those types of things. But Rocklin or any team for the most part losing their QB is a much bigger deal than DLS losing their RB. The CIF won't consider it a big deal.

Was far from the only point but I try to NOT argue and you try to argue 

You make much of a win over a Hs ranked #331 that has never won consecutive Section championships 

rocklin certainly would have lost to MNC DBP

rocklin almost certainly would have lost to Lakeland, who was ranked in top 25s until penultimate week of season

rocklin did get beat by a team DLS annilhated —> realize this one is after the fact

it was abundantly clear — and this is #1 cause of action imho, not rocklin’s injury that DLS a) was a much better team by selection time than a team that was struggling to win a game in NorCal first month of season (+30 in MV rematch) and that’s really the only year I felt like DLS campaigned — they were very vocal about wanting not just the SBG but the Open and I think the people making the decision felt that DLS was the better team regardless of how you feel the side by side comparison looks 8 years later.  Effectively, I think DLS earned a “trust me” chit that they used that was effectively returned to them after the game for delivering on promise

subtlety gets lost in 8 years but I don’t think rocklin’s qb’s injury was even the #1 favor much less only factor 

 

[Pops]

1 hour ago, Ararar said:

It’s not available because the SS doesn’t have an open division.The City Section went to an open format this year and are expected to send the Open runner up Crenshaw instead of the D1 champ San Fernando 

When I say available, I mean the SS can change it

point being, which was lost long ago, is don’t blame anyone else for SJB staying home, you guys just need to rename the D1 bracket “Open” (you treat it as one already)

[Ararar]

Just now, Pops said:

When I say available, I mean the SS can change it

point being, which was lost long ago, is don’t blame anyone else for SJB staying home, you guys just need to rename the D1 bracket “Open” (you treat it as one already)

Oh sure any section can change their format.Nobody is crying for SJB that’s just how we do it down here and notice there hasn’t been any complaints from the other SS D1 schools that are highly ranked state but get no SBG Regional or otherwise 

[Eddyr2]

41 minutes ago, Ararar said:

Oh sure any section can change their format.Nobody is crying for SJB that’s just how we do it down here and notice there hasn’t been any complaints from the other SS D1 schools that are highly ranked state but get no SBG Regional or otherwise 

Almost no complaints

[CaliNorth]

8 hours ago, ThunderRam said:

 

It had to be the ONLY point. Otherwise, DLS should have had no argument.

14-0 versus 12-2 w/ 1 loss being a blowout = EDGE Rocklin

1 win over SJS D1 Champ & 1 win over Nationally ranked team versus no marquee wins = EDGE Rocklin

There really was no justification for DLS getting the nod based upon the above. The injury gave the CIF an out and they took it.

Point was, they do consider those types of things. But Rocklin or any team for the most part losing their QB is a much bigger deal than DLS losing their RB. The CIF won't consider it a big deal.

Honestly, Rocklin over DLS ? The difference between those two was night and day at the end of year. Watching the Rocklin vs. Servite game in D-1 final, and then seeing the Crenshaw vs. Dela in Open right after, one would have thought  one game was JV and the other Varsity. In fact, having seeing both games and the disparity between both, laid the ground work for next  year's prediction between Dela and Servite  being a blowout win for Dela. The question was by how much?  As one of the Granite Bay coaches who was down there in 2010 said, ( Guarantee  Dela by 25. This is no Gorman that they are playing ! ). Game was even worse than the score indicated. And 2010 Servite was better than the 2009 Servite by a good margin.

[Sammyswordsman]

19 minutes ago, CaliNorth said:

Honestly, Rocklin over DLS ? The difference between those two was night and day at the end of year. Watching the Rocklin vs. Servite game in D-1 final, and then seeing the Crenshaw vs. Dela in Open right after, one would have thought  one game was JV and the other Varsity. In fact, having seeing both games and the disparity between both, laid the ground work for next  year's prediction between Dela and Servite  being a blowout win for Dela. The question was by how much?  As one of the Granite Bay coaches who was down there in 2010 said, ( Guarantee  Dela by 25. This is no Gorman that they are playing ! ). Game was even worse than the score indicated. And 2010 Servite was better than the 2009 Servite by a good margin.

Most ignorant post ever to come out of Nor Cal.....and thats saying something.

Crenshaw is an inner city school and was beating DLS 14-0 before their ONLY player got hurt.  Servite was up big on Rocklin early, took their foot off the gas, never trailed and then did what they had to do to win the game. 

The Servite vs. Rocklin game was the REAL state championship game, and 4 of 5 ranking services ranked Servite ahead of DLS.

Please stop with the nonsense and get an avatar.

[CaliNorth]

1 hour ago, Sammyswordsman said:

Most ignorant post ever to come out of Nor Cal.....and thats saying something.

Crenshaw is an inner city school and was beating DLS 14-0 before their ONLY player got hurt.  Servite was up big on Rocklin early, took their foot off the gas, never trailed and then did what they had to do to win the game. 

The Servite vs. Rocklin game was the REAL state championship game, and 4 of 5 ranking services ranked Servite ahead of DLS.

Please stop with the nonsense and get an avatar.

Sorry Sammy, I know the truth hurts, but that was reality. We all saw it a mile away,  the destruction of Servite in 2010 based on what we saw in 2009.  The amazing thing was that in 2010 Servite was clearly the best in 2010 in socal, head and shoulders above any one else down there, no debate. Yet we saw what we saw. Same goes for Folsom up north. All the hoopla and high rankings and banter that they would beat Dela in 2012, and possibly 2013. It just goes to show how ridiculous these rankings can be sometimes. One thing is for sure this year, however, that MD is the real deal, and that goes for being the best in country, not CA. You should take solace in that.

[Sammyswordsman]

30 minutes ago, CaliNorth said:

Sorry Sammy, I know the truth hurts, but that was reality. We all saw it a mile away,  the destruction of Servite in 2010 based on what we saw in 2009.  The amazing thing was that in 2010 Servite was clearly the best in 2010 in socal, head and shoulders above any one else down there, no debate. Yet we saw what we saw. Same goes for Folsom up north. All the hoopla and high rankings and banter that they would beat Dela in 2012, and possibly 2013. It just goes to show how ridiculous these rankings can be sometimes. One thing is for sure this year, however, that MD is the real deal, and that goes for being the best in country, not CA. You should take solace in that.

Servite 2009 was better than 2010.  Better QB, Better WR,

DLS was alot better in 2010 than 2009.  Sorry but the rain and field conditions contributed alot to Servites inability to run their offense.  Not saying they would have won, because the wouldn't.  2010 DLS was too good.

You saw nothing coming from 2009

[DogPile]

20 hours ago, ECHS05 said:

Who cares who Folsom plays.

It wont be even a top 15 team in SoCal. All the good ones are in the same bracket and cant play in Bowls.

Who's fault is that?  I think each section chooses how they handle the preliminary brackets.  Much as I love the Devil, I would love to see them play the actual second best to from the South (assuming they beat Central).  The North fixed that problem (knocking the 2nd best team out), and so should the South.  Having said all of that, I sincerely hope that Kris Richardson schedules a top tier Trinity team in the preseason next year, not because they would necessarily win, but at least there would be a gauge to measure how good they are.

[ThunderRam]

11 hours ago, Pops said:

You make much of a win over a Hs ranked #331 that has never won consecutive Section championships

Stop with your over-reliance on Calpreps and do some actual homework. Grant Union wasn't 331 in country. They were defending CA Open Champs and entered the game ranked No. 1 in NorCal, No. 2 in the State and No. 8 nationally by CalHiSports/ESPN. They also had a road win over State Champ Bellevue. DLS didn't have a win remotely close to Rocklin's win over the Pacers.

Whether Grant Union won back to back section titles in their history has no relevance at all. You love to insert things that mean absolutely nothing.

 

11 hours ago, Pops said:

rocklin certainly would have lost to MNC DBP

rocklin almost certainly would have lost to Lakeland, who was ranked in top 25s until penultimate week of season

Subjective opinions don't equate to facts. But regardless what Rocklin may or may not have done against those teams, what we know for fact is that DLS did lose to those teams. And one was a bad loss. You don't get credit for losses, especially a non-competitive one.

DLS had 2 losses. Rocklin had none. Rocklin had higher profile wins than DLS. This is indisputable. If the resumes were reversed, you'd be pointing these exact things out. But, instead, your de facto argument for DLS when the resume doesn't quite measure up is always to point out history and things that have nothing to do with the season in question.

11 hours ago, Pops said:

rocklin did get beat by a team DLS annilhated —> realize this one is after the fact

No, they didn't. Again, you love to distort, twist and skew things -- and cross over seasons.

The Servite team Rocklin faced was not the same Servite team DLS faced a year later. No Rudy Fajardo, completely different offense. Sammy has told you the same thing. 2010 doesn't equal 2009. Completely different teams and circumstances. I don't understand why you always try to pull shenanigans like this. Was DLS 2016 at all like DLS 2015?? Give me a break.

11 hours ago, Pops said:

it was abundantly clear — and this is #1 cause of action imho, not rocklin’s injury that DLS a) was a much better team by selection time than a team that was struggling to win a game in NorCal first month of season (+30 in MV rematch) and that’s really the only year I felt like DLS campaigned — they were very vocal about wanting not just the SBG but the Open and I think the people making the decision felt that DLS was the better team regardless of how you feel the side by side comparison looks 8 years later.  Effectively, I think DLS earned a “trust me” chit that they used that was effectively returned to them after the game for delivering on promise

subtlety gets lost in 8 years but I don’t think rocklin’s qb’s injury was even the #1 favor much less only factor

Everything is abundantly clear to you except the fact that DLS's resume in 2009 wasn't as strong as Rocklin's. If you took the name of the schools away and just looked at the resumes, they favored Rocklin. The QB injury gave the committee the out they needed to put DLS through based upon reputation. That was the point.

If I'm wrong, please point to the wins the Spartans had that should have trumped Rocklin's undefeated record which included wins over the No. 8 team in the country and a 1-loss D1 Champ.

[ThunderRam]

8 hours ago, Sammyswordsman said:

The Servite vs. Rocklin game was the REAL state championship game, and 4 of 5 ranking services ranked Servite ahead of DLS.

 Yep. Best 2 teams that season. And the comparison between Servite's 2009 and 2010 teams is laughable. 2009 was a far better team. Cody Fajardo was one of the biggest reasons why.

[Sammyswordsman]

5 minutes ago, ThunderRam said:

Stop with your over-reliance on Calpreps and do some actual homework. Grant Union wasn't 331 in country. They were defending CA Open Champs and entered the game ranked No. 1 in NorCal, No. 2 in the State and No. 8 nationally by CalHiSports/ESPN. They also had a road win over State Champ Bellevue. DLS didn't have a win remotely close to Rocklin's win over the Pacers.

Whether Grant Union won back to back section titles in their history has no relevance at all. You love to insert things that mean absolutely nothing.

 

Subjective opinions don't equate to facts. But regardless what Rocklin may or may not have done against those teams, what we know for fact is that DLS did lose to those teams. And one was a bad loss. You don't get credit for losses, especially a non-competitive one.

DLS had 2 losses. Rocklin had none. Rocklin had higher profile wins than DLS. This is indisputable. If the resumes were reversed, you'd be pointing these exact things out. But, instead, your de facto argument for DLS when the resume doesn't quite measure up is always to point out history and things that have nothing to do with the season in question.

No, they didn't. Again, you love to distort, twist and skew things -- and cross over seasons.

The Servite team Rocklin faced was not the same Servite team DLS faced a year later. No Rudy Fajardo, completely different offense. Sammy has told you the same thing. 2010 doesn't equal 2009. Completely different teams and circumstances. I don't understand why you always try to pull shenanigans like this. Was DLS 2016 at all like DLS 2015?? Give me a break.

Everything is abundantly clear to you except the fact that DLS's resume in 2009 wasn't as strong as Rocklin's. If you took the name of the schools away and just looked at the resumes, they favored Rocklin. The QB injury gave the committee the out they needed to put DLS through based upon reputation. That was the point.

If I'm wrong, please point to the wins the Spartans had that should have trumped Rocklin's undefeated record which included wins over the No. 8 team in the country and a 1-loss D1 Champ.

Regardless of what you call the name of the Bowl game, the fact is that the Servite vs. Rocklin was the Marquee game.

Servite was Pac 5 Champ and ranked in Top 10.  Rocklin was undefeated.

Crenshaw was a political choice to make up for being left out the previous year, and DLS had two losses.

[ThunderRam]

1 minute ago, Sammyswordsman said:

Regardless of what you call the name of the Bowl game, the fact is that the Servite vs. Rocklin was the Marquee game.

Servite was Pac 5 Champ and ranked in Top 10.  Rocklin was undefeated.

Crenshaw was a political choice to make up for being left out the previous year, and DLS had two losses.

 

Agreed. And even if DLS was truly better than Rocklin, it still doesn't change the fact that the Thunder's undefeated record included wins over No. 8 in the Nation and a 1-loss D1 Section Champ. It wasn't a hollow undefeated record -- they actually played and beat somebody noteworthy along the way.

[Sammyswordsman]

3 minutes ago, ThunderRam said:

 

Agreed. And even if DLS was truly better than Rocklin, it still doesn't change the fact that the Thunder's undefeated record included wins over No. 8 in the Nation and a 1-loss D1 Section Champ. It wasn't a hollow undefeated record -- they actually played and beat somebody noteworthy along the way.

Yep and Crenshaw's best win was #114 Lakewood.  While Servite had  beat #1 Edison, #24 Mission Viejo, and #91 Chapparall.  Go figure

The CIF pulled political shennanigans that year, which resulted in people demanding the play in game

[On2whls]

On 12/2/2017 at 4:53 PM, old_e said:

With McKee healthy, Centennial is on the same level as MD and SJB.

This year they didn’t have good enough receivers to compete with MD or SJB.  Ironic in that for McKees final two years, the receiving corp nowhere near as talented as 2014, 2015 when they had a run first QB.

[CaliNorth]

3 hours ago, ThunderRam said:

 

Agreed. And even if DLS was truly better than Rocklin, it still doesn't change the fact that the Thunder's undefeated record included wins over No. 8 in the Nation and a 1-loss D1 Section Champ. It wasn't a hollow undefeated record -- they actually played and beat somebody noteworthy along the way.

Thunder, here is a question for you. If you had to make a bet today between Alabama vs. Ohio St., who would you take ? Based upon your method of deduction, I'm sure you are extremely disappointed that Ohio St. didn't get selected over Bama. All the arguments of why a conference champion and all,  gets nosed out by a team that can't even win their division in their own conference.  Yet most  everyone who does an  eye test would have to put the money on Bama if they played the Buckeyes.  Almost anyone who knows H.S. football would've taken 2009 Spartans and bet heavily that they would have beaten both Servite nad Rocklin in 2009. And I would even go so far as to say a -21. pt spread would be  on dela's side of the bet. 2009 Dela ended up being an Elite team once they had their qb in place. In some aspects they were better than 2010. Their rb tandem of Anderson and Ward trumps Dunne in 2010. Ward and Anderson were also very gifted db's. The D-line of 2009 I think was better. O-lines were different in that  2009 was bigger and more powerful, while 2010 was smaller but quicker. Lb's were a push. All in all, the difference between 2009 and 2010 was hardly much. 2010 had a cleaner record and season, but by season's end is where you have to judge where those teams stood. As far as Crenshaw is concerned, they had tremendous upside capabilities in that they could get to the next level when playin an Elite team like those Dela teams. They had elite speed, elite athleticism and size, something both Rocklin and Servite lacked. ( I know there were a few on both teams. Rocklin' rb was damn good and shredded Servite. Servite had the Te etc., but all in all nothing like what Crenshaw had ). As far as giving Grant a #8 national ranking was just fool's gold. Grant has never been a true national elite program, despite what polls want to give them. Did Grant have athletes ? Yes, but as a team they never were nationally great. I like what Folsom did to them in 2010. Grant smashed them opening game, but by season's end when Folsom got it together,  they destroyed Grant ( yes I know Grant's best player was injured ). My point is polls and all that stuff is quite often way out of line. The eye test  is often the best judge of things if you can't actually have the teams go head to head. . Go Bama 

[Pops]

5 hours ago, ThunderRam said:

Stop with your over-reliance on Calpreps and do some actual homework. Grant Union wasn't 331 in country. They were defending CA Open Champs and entered the game ranked No. 1 in NorCal, No. 2 in the State and No. 8 nationally by CalHiSports/ESPN. They also had a road win over State Champ Bellevue. DLS didn't have a win remotely close to Rocklin's win over the Pacers.

Whether Grant Union won back to back section titles in their history has no relevance at all. You love to insert things that mean absolutely nothing.

 

Subjective opinions don't equate to facts. But regardless what Rocklin may or may not have done against those teams, what we know for fact is that DLS did lose to those teams. And one was a bad loss. You don't get credit for losses, especially a non-competitive one.

DLS had 2 losses. Rocklin had none. Rocklin had higher profile wins than DLS. This is indisputable. If the resumes were reversed, you'd be pointing these exact things out. But, instead, your de facto argument for DLS when the resume doesn't quite measure up is always to point out history and things that have nothing to do with the season in question.

No, they didn't. Again, you love to distort, twist and skew things -- and cross over seasons.

The Servite team Rocklin faced was not the same Servite team DLS faced a year later. No Rudy Fajardo, completely different offense. Sammy has told you the same thing. 2010 doesn't equal 2009. Completely different teams and circumstances. I don't understand why you always try to pull shenanigans like this. Was DLS 2016 at all like DLS 2015?? Give me a break.

Everything is abundantly clear to you except the fact that DLS's resume in 2009 wasn't as strong as Rocklin's. If you took the name of the schools away and just looked at the resumes, they favored Rocklin. The QB injury gave the committee the out they needed to put DLS through based upon reputation. That was the point.

If I'm wrong, please point to the wins the Spartans had that should have trumped Rocklin's undefeated record which included wins over the No. 8 team in the country and a 1-loss D1 Champ.

You make a lot of good points but the relevant point that I objected to was it turning on rocklin’s QB’s injury

that was not as meaningful tonthe committee, I’d imagine, as Bob Ladouceur saying DLS wants the Open

dont quote me the criteria — I’m telling you that was more meaningful — that was very uncharacteristic campaigning (can’t think of another example) and it was a close enough decision that that carried the day — the rocklin QB was more about how to justify it — regardless of your season tale of the tape 8 years later, most thought DLS was the better team by that time (and by most, maybe I should say the CCS guys since NCS and SJS was split)...

you remind me of my wife in your ability to makes concessions and find common ground 🤓

[Pops]

5 hours ago, Sammyswordsman said:

Regardless of what you call the name of the Bowl game, the fact is that the Servite vs. Rocklin was the Marquee game.

Servite was Pac 5 Champ and ranked in Top 10.  Rocklin was undefeated.

Crenshaw was a political choice to make up for being left out the previous year, and DLS had two losses.

I know this is the one fantasy you want to cling to most — I’ll give you this if you back off on the devil a bit 

You don’t want to make a living talking about how Servite must have been better than DLS in ‘09 — neither team changed that much 

[Sammyswordsman]

5 hours ago, Pops said:

I know this is the one fantasy you want to cling to most — I’ll give you this if you back off on the devil a bit 

You don’t want to make a living talking about how Servite must have been better than DLS in ‘09 — neither team changed that much 

You'll never catch me saying that Servite was better than DLS in any year 

[Pops]

2 hours ago, Sammyswordsman said:

You'll never catch me saying that Servite was better than DLS in any year 

Didn’t you just say it about ‘09?

Btw, I wouldn’t blame you since they were named “team of the year” but is a good opportunity for me to bring up my favorite game ever