CTE at high school level

[World Citizen]

8 minutes ago, Columbiafan said:

Bingo

This CTE is going to beat us over the head for a while until it dawn's on us that we should do something.  For as smart as people are they are sure slow to see what's in front of them...some times. 

[Gospeeder]

1 minute ago, World Citizen said:

This CTE is going to beat us over the head for a while until it dawn's on us that we should do something.  For as smart as people are they are sure slow to see what's in front of them...some times. 

Oh... they see it alright... Its the money and politics that get in the way.

[Cat_Scratch]

10 hours ago, Columbiafan said:

Nope but there are ones on the market that provide a better protection of concussions

There is a barrier between the skull and the brain. Some people are "thick headed", or have a better built in barrier, than other people. Those that are easily concussed, the best equipment in the world are not going to stop them from getting concussions. In boxing and the martial arts, we called it "a glass jaw". It's nature. 

Having said that... I'm all for less contact at the younger ages, and the best equipment you can put on a kid.  

[ThunderRam]

On 4/30/2019 at 2:09 PM, Columbiafan said:

I just think that we should at least try to make a effort to get the proper equipment at a younger age so the sport can be preserved for the long term

 

On 4/30/2019 at 6:59 PM, World Citizen said:

This CTE is going to beat us over the head for a while until it dawn's on us that we should do something.  For as smart as people are they are sure slow to see what's in front of them...some times. 

 

Every single time this subject -- which is solely targeted at youth and HS tackle football -- comes up, I consistently pose the same questions that are seemingly always glossed over and ignored.

Why isn't girls youth soccer in danger of not being 'preserved for the long term' too? It has a higher concussion and sub-concussion rate. Why don't we keep getting bombarded with articles about it every couple weeks or months and why don't the people at the forefront of the anti-tackle football movement have the same agenda against it or even other dangerous impact sports?

When are the same people oh so focused on this subject against tackle football gonna embark on the same crusade against under-18 driving and bring that subject up ad nauseam until it's 'safer' or eradicated? It's one of the leading causes of death among 15-17 year olds and the numbers dwarf concussions and CTE. Why are they only loudly concerned about protecting our youth against the risks of one particular activity?

Until targeted at all equally or more dangerous activities, this continues to be an agenda driven witch hunt by an extremely hypocritical faction of people. Because of that, it continues to be difficult for me to take any of these people seriously.

I have no issue with making any and every attempt to make the sport safer for those that choose to participate. But I do take issue with the notion that the sport will or should ever go away due to the risks when there's not currently a similar threat to other equally risky sports/activities such as those already mentioned. And there won't ever be.

In short, I dislike the selective and arbitrary targeting of just one sport/activity -- especially when there are bigger fish to fry that are currently being ignored or at least not receiving even half the attention.

[Columbiafan]

7 minutes ago, ThunderRam said:

 

 

Every single time this subject -- which is solely targeted at youth and HS tackle football -- comes up, I consistently pose the same questions that are seemingly always glossed over and ignored.

Why isn't girls youth soccer in danger of not being 'preserved for the long term' too? It has a higher concussion and sub-concussion rate. Why don't we keep getting bombarded with articles about it every couple weeks or months and why don't the people at the forefront of the anti-tackle football movement have the same agenda against it or even other dangerous impact sports?

When are the same people oh so focused on this subject against tackle football gonna embark on the same crusade against under-18 driving and bring that subject up ad nauseam until it's 'safer' or eradicated? It's one of the leading causes of death among 15-17 year olds and the numbers dwarf concussions and CTE. Why are they only loudly concerned about protecting our youth against the risks of one particular activity?

Until targeted at all equally or more dangerous activities, this continues to be an agenda driven witch hunt by an extremely hypocritical faction of people. Because of that, it continues to be difficult for me to take any of these people seriously.

I have no issue with making any and every attempt to make the sport safer for those that choose to participate. But I do take issue with the notion that the sport will or should ever go away due to the risks when there's not currently a similar threat to other equally risky sports/activities such as those already mentioned. And there won't ever be.

In short, I dislike the selective and arbitrary targeting of just one sport/activity -- especially when there are bigger fish to fry that are currently being ignored or at least not receiving even half the attention.

I bring up only football in the forum because at the end of the day this is a FOOTBALL board

 

And soccer doesn't wear helmets last time I checked so there isn't gonna be any concussion reduction equipment like in football

 

As for the people who target only football and not other dangerous activities I have no comment on that besides you would need to ask someone who falls under the category of anti football and find out why they don't target any other activity, my purpose behind this post is to show that CTE has been found in high school age players which hurts the credibility behind the statement that all these injuries are caused at college or pro level to make a point that better safety is needed much earlier in life for people who choose to play the sport

[mustangman21]

2 hours ago, Columbiafan said:

I bring up only football in the forum because at the end of the day this is a FOOTBALL board

 

And soccer doesn't wear helmets last time I checked so there isn't gonna be any concussion reduction equipment like in football

 

As for the people who target only football and not other dangerous activities I have no comment on that besides you would need to ask someone who falls under the category of anti football and find out why they don't target any other activity, my purpose behind this post is to show that CTE has been found in high school age players which hurts the credibility behind the statement that all these injuries are caused at college or pro level to make a point that better safety is needed much earlier in life for people who choose to play the sport

Maybe they should start?

[HSFBfan]

9 minutes ago, mustangman21 said:

Maybe they should start?

NOOOOOOO

[Cracker]

It's pretty simple. If the risk is too great to you personally, then don't play.

[World Citizen]

3 hours ago, ThunderRam said:

 

 

Every single time this subject -- which is solely targeted at youth and HS tackle football -- comes up, I consistently pose the same questions that are seemingly always glossed over and ignored.

Why isn't girls youth soccer in danger of not being 'preserved for the long term' too? It has a higher concussion and sub-concussion rate. Why don't we keep getting bombarded with articles about it every couple weeks or months and why don't the people at the forefront of the anti-tackle football movement have the same agenda against it or even other dangerous impact sports?

When are the same people oh so focused on this subject against tackle football gonna embark on the same crusade against under-18 driving and bring that subject up ad nauseam until it's 'safer' or eradicated? It's one of the leading causes of death among 15-17 year olds and the numbers dwarf concussions and CTE. Why are they only loudly concerned about protecting our youth against the risks of one particular activity?

Until targeted at all equally or more dangerous activities, this continues to be an agenda driven witch hunt by an extremely hypocritical faction of people. Because of that, it continues to be difficult for me to take any of these people seriously.

I have no issue with making any and every attempt to make the sport safer for those that choose to participate. But I do take issue with the notion that the sport will or should ever go away due to the risks when there's not currently a similar threat to other equally risky sports/activities such as those already mentioned. And there won't ever be.

In short, I dislike the selective and arbitrary targeting of just one sport/activity -- especially when there are bigger fish to fry that are currently being ignored or at least not receiving even half the attention.

The absence of mentioning other areas where CTE could be a problem should not lead you to conclude that those areas are being purposely avoided.  It's just this is a hs football forum.  Any sport where kids are subject to possible brain damage and it can be made safer should get agreement from everybody.  Except HSFBFan of course, he doesn't care about anybody.

Your driving analogy doesn't make sense IMO, at least as it concerns CTE and sports.

[mustangman21]

Why are we just relegating this topic to equipment? Contributions to concussions:

Field turf

Spread offense

HUNH offense 

Punt/punt return

Kick/kick return

Interception returns

blindside hits

[HSFBfan]

27 minutes ago, mustangman21 said:

Why are we just relegating this topic to equipment? Contributions to concussions:

Field turf

Spread offense

HUNH offense 

Punt/punt return

Kick/kick return

Interception returns

blindside hits

Punt one kick returns are part of the game. Another thing the NFL has ruined  

[Columbiafan]

29 minutes ago, mustangman21 said:

Why are we just relegating this topic to equipment? Contributions to concussions:

Field turf

Spread offense

HUNH offense 

Punt/punt return

Kick/kick return

Interception returns

blindside hits

That is something I'm definitely curious to learn about, do you have any potential data that could have a impact on certain playing surfaces being more unsafe?

[Columbiafan]

2 hours ago, mustangman21 said:

Maybe they should start?

If it would help make the game safer than I'm not gonna complain about it

 

 

If more protection makes it where rules don't have to be drastically changed than it's definitely the lesser of 2 evils

[mustangman21]

2 hours ago, Columbiafan said:

That is something I'm definitely curious to learn about, do you have any potential data that could have a impact on certain playing surfaces being more unsafe?

Physics is my proof, an unatural playing surface is proved to make players faster. Higher speeds = more momentum. More momentum = bigger collisions. Bigger collisions = more concussions 

https://concussionfoundation.org/sites/default/files/Learning Center/The Role of Synthetic Turf in Concussion_0.pdf

 

Spread offense, less players in more space = a wider window of closing space resulting in bigger collisions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687838/

 

HUNH offense = defensive players fatigued more often = players not being able to protect themselves as well. Also more plays = more chances for concussions.

https://www.al.com/sports/2014/02/what_does_science_say_about_hu.html

 

Punt/punt return = A lot of players running at each other at a high rate of speed with a lot of space in between. High potential for peel back blindside blocks 

 

Kick/Kick return See punt above

 

Plenty of data there, read away.

[mustangman21]

So now with all of that data I think we can come to the conclusion that yes better helmets will marginally improve the rate of concussions. However I believe all of the above info has a far greater impact on rate of concussion then helmets. But you start changing and taking out all that stuff now you're changing the game completely and watering it down which will have unimplied consequences. Whether y'all want to admit it or not, violence is what get most fans' attention. You take that out of the game and fan interest will wane. Once that happens all those scholarships you think all of these players are entitled to will dwindle. Every action has a reaction.

 

Here's the answer in the most simple form. Football is unsustainable to play without the risk of concussion.

[ThunderRam]

13 hours ago, Columbiafan said:

I bring up only football in the forum because at the end of the day this is a FOOTBALL board

 

And soccer doesn't wear helmets last time I checked so there isn't gonna be any concussion reduction equipment like in football

 

I knew i was gonna get the “this is a football board” reply. I almost preemptively mentioned it to take it away. Obviously I should have. 

Both you and @World Citizen have been around these parts long enough to know that non-football topics are brought up and discussed all the time. That excuse doesn’t play.

Besides, my response wasn’t targeted at you for posting the thread but rather all the news articles/stories about it — which is what creates discussion and spawns threads like this one. They are overwhelmingly targeting tackle football. I’ve seen some attention on youth soccer, primarily girls soccer, but nowhere near the same level. I’ve never really seen any focus on teen driving and questioning whether parents should allow it. Yet tackle football is always under question. Largely by the same faction ignoring these other activities. That is my point.

Regarding your reply on soccer, you’re missing my point. It’s not about a helmet. Perhaps soccer is as safe as it’s ever gonna be (likely not). For a brief moment pretending that it is, the detractors need to get off their soapbox at some point and allow parents and children the choice to participate at their own risk (like they do for soccer and teen driving) instead of constantly trying to legislate it out of existence just because they don’t want their own kids to participate. 

There’s no talk of girls youth soccer needing to be ‘preserved’ due the potential threat of abolishment. Yet it still carries a lot of risk for concussions and sub concussions. There’s no talk of teen driving going away despite the myriad of tragic injuries and death every single day. Therefore the same should be the same for tackle football. That’s the point.

I’m speaking in general and not toward you.

 

9 hours ago, World Citizen said:

The absence of mentioning other areas where CTE could be a problem should not lead you to conclude that those areas are being purposely avoided.  It's just this is a hs football forum.  Any sport where kids are subject to possible brain damage and it can be made safer should get agreement from everybody. 

Your driving analogy doesn't make sense IMO, at least as it concerns CTE and sports.

 

They are being avoided. Maybe not by you, but by the masses leading the daily charge against tackle football. 

See my response to Columbia about this being a football forum. Neither one of you have limited all of your content and opinions on this site to ‘just football’. You know that. Thats just an easy way to deflect the point I’ve made.

Next, I clearly agreed with the point about doing whatever can be done, within reason, to continue to make all sports/activities safer. But once a plateau is reached, the answer shouldn’t be a movement to discontinue said sport/activity. The answer should be to educate and allow the choice to participate. However, if discontinuation is gonna be the path, then apply it uniformly. But that’s not the direction it’s been going.

Again, not saying you are guilty of hypocrisy, but many are and I continue to bring that point to light each time this subject is brought to light.

Lastly, the teen driving example is most certainly relevant and makes sense. It’s a highly dangerous and risky activity that parents can choose to allow their minor children to do or not do even though the child can’t fully comprehend all the risks involved. If they allow the far more dangerous activity over the other, it’s beyond hypocritical and not fully protecting the kids. How can you not see that?

 

[HawgGoneIt]

I do agree with ThunderRam here. Football seems to be under attack from many angles. 

We all know it's dangerous, and, we all know the NFL intentionally hid data from it's players for years. 

This next isn't aimed at any posters, but just at the world in general.

Now... the knowledge of CTE has left the station. It's out there as far as football is concerned. Why keep beating that drum now though?  It does take something away from the credibility of those both studying ways to lessen CTE and those that appear to care so much about the youth since they appear to do just as ThunderRam said... either not mention, appear to not care as much about other sports that have similar risk factors but less of a spotlight. 

Football players wear soft shell helmets for 7 on 7 tourneys even, where there is no intentional contact. 

Where are the CTE activists at on soccer? Are we not as worried about the young men and ladies playing those sports? Why aren't we forcing them to wear goofy looking soft shell helmets?

Mouth guards?  Etc. 

 

 

It definitely seems like an anti-football movement. And the apparent lack of concern for the other athletes in other sports only helps to solidify that line of thought.

 

[Belly Bob]

On 5/2/2019 at 12:26 PM, ThunderRam said:

 

 

Every single time this subject -- which is solely targeted at youth and HS tackle football -- comes up, I consistently pose the same questions that are seemingly always glossed over and ignored.

Why isn't girls youth soccer in danger of not being 'preserved for the long term' too? It has a higher concussion and sub-concussion rate. [...]

Link?

Someone posted a doc that showed data on injuries in youth sports and I don't remember seeing girls soccer in the top 10. If I remember correctly, football was no 1 by a wide margin, both in terms of rates of injury and in seriousness of injury. It included data on concussions. Again, I feel like I remember football being the clear no 1 there as well. 

[Belly Bob]

On 4/30/2019 at 5:02 PM, mustangman21 said:

It's almost like you forget that this game has been played for 150 years, sometimes with no helmet, leather helmet, suspension helmet, etc. 

Yes some of those guys died/fucked up their brains. A whole bunch more didn't. I mean we're talking about Millions of men that have played football vs maybe 1000 confirmed CTE cases. Maybe those numbers will change. What to you is an acceptable % of CTE vs non CTE retired players?

I'm fine with you wanting players to wear the best equipment available. But to somehow force the league to subsidize that is ridiculous. Put on a car wash or a fundraiser and buy it as a team. 

It's not the first time that football has been under attack over safety concerns, which is part of the reason why the equipment was updated and the rules were changed. 

I think if you want youth football to stick around, you've gotta do something to allay the fears of concerned parents. What's more, you should be concerned about the kids and their brains, since they're not in a position to make a decision about whether or not the possibility of brain damage, however small, is worth the risk of playing football. Since we don't have all the relevant data yet, it's probably wise to be cautious and to be open to new evidence and to new strategies for preventing brain injuries. 

[HawgGoneIt]

Not trying to interject where I wasn't really involved in the direct debate, but I went and found an 11 year study. Smelly is correct that over all the youth sports tracked, boys football and lacross account for the vast majority of concussions. 

Girls soccer was the highest among girls though and girls had nearly twice the concussion risk as boys, and girls soccer had the 2nd highest risk/exposure rate. This could explain the confusion. 

 

Here is the study...

https://www.medstarsportsmedicine.org/research/which-youth-sports-cause-the-most-concussions/

A Prospective 11-Year Study

Background: Understanding the risk and trends of sports-related concussion among 12 scholastic sports may contribute to concussion detection, treatment, and prevention.

Purpose: To examine the incidence and relative risk of concussion in 12 high school boys' and girls' sports between academic years 1997-1998 and 2007-2008.

Study Design: Descriptive epidemiology study.

Methods: Data were prospectively gathered for 25 schools in a large public high school system. All schools used an electronic medical record-keeping program. A certified athletic trainer was on-site for games and practices and electronically recorded all injuries daily.

Results: In sum, 2651 concussions were observed in 10 926 892 athlete-exposures, with an incidence rate of 0.24 per 1000. Boys' sports accounted for 53% of athlete-exposures and 75% of all concussions. Football accounted for more than half of all concussions, and it had the highest incidence rate (0.60). Girls' soccer had the most concussions among the girls' sports and the second-highest incidence rate of all 12 sports (0.35). Concussion rate increased 4.2-fold (95% confidence interval, 3.4-5.2) over the 11 years (15.5% annual increase). In similar boys' and girls' sports (baseball/softball, basketball, and soccer), girls had roughly twice the concussion risk of boys. Concussion rate increased over time in all 12 sports.

Conclusion: Although the collision sports of football and boys' lacrosse had the highest number of concussions and football the highest concussion rate, concussion occurred in all other sports and was observed in girls' sports at rates similar to or higher than those of boys' sports. The increase over time in all sports may reflect actual increased occurrence or greater coding sensitivity with widely disseminated guidance on concussion detection and treatment. The high-participation collision sports of football and boys' lacrosse warrant continued vigilance, but the findings suggest that focus on concussion detection, treatment, and prevention should not be limited to those sports traditionally associated with concussion risk.

[Belly Bob]

7 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Not trying to interject where I wasn't really involved in the direct debate, but I went and found an 11 year study. Smelly is correct that over all the youth sports tracked, boys football and lacross account for the vast majority of concussions. 

Girls soccer was the highest among girls though and girls had nearly twice the concussion risk as boys, and girls soccer had the 2nd highest risk/exposure rate. This could explain the confusion. 

 

Here is the study...

https://www.medstarsportsmedicine.org/research/which-youth-sports-cause-the-most-concussions/

A Prospective 11-Year Study

Background: Understanding the risk and trends of sports-related concussion among 12 scholastic sports may contribute to concussion detection, treatment, and prevention.

Purpose: To examine the incidence and relative risk of concussion in 12 high school boys' and girls' sports between academic years 1997-1998 and 2007-2008.

Study Design: Descriptive epidemiology study.

Methods: Data were prospectively gathered for 25 schools in a large public high school system. All schools used an electronic medical record-keeping program. A certified athletic trainer was on-site for games and practices and electronically recorded all injuries daily.

Results: In sum, 2651 concussions were observed in 10 926 892 athlete-exposures, with an incidence rate of 0.24 per 1000. Boys' sports accounted for 53% of athlete-exposures and 75% of all concussions. Football accounted for more than half of all concussions, and it had the highest incidence rate (0.60). Girls' soccer had the most concussions among the girls' sports and the second-highest incidence rate of all 12 sports (0.35). Concussion rate increased 4.2-fold (95% confidence interval, 3.4-5.2) over the 11 years (15.5% annual increase). In similar boys' and girls' sports (baseball/softball, basketball, and soccer), girls had roughly twice the concussion risk of boys. Concussion rate increased over time in all 12 sports.

Conclusion: Although the collision sports of football and boys' lacrosse had the highest number of concussions and football the highest concussion rate, concussion occurred in all other sports and was observed in girls' sports at rates similar to or higher than those of boys' sports. The increase over time in all sports may reflect actual increased occurrence or greater coding sensitivity with widely disseminated guidance on concussion detection and treatment. The high-participation collision sports of football and boys' lacrosse warrant continued vigilance, but the findings suggest that focus on concussion detection, treatment, and prevention should not be limited to those sports traditionally associated with concussion risk.

I wonder if the higher rate of concussions among girls has something to do with the anatomy or physiology of girls' skulls or brains. Maybe girls are more likely to get concussions given similar collisions or blows to the head. 

[HawgGoneIt]

12 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

I wonder if the higher rate of concussions among girls has something to do with the anatomy or physiology of girls' skulls or brains. Maybe girls are more likely to get concussions given similar collisions or blows to the head. 

Good question. 

Also we have to toss in repetitive concussions as it relates to football and whether the same girls get repetitive concussions in soccer. 

I think the concensus on CTE is it's coming from repetitive concussions. 

Still have to wonder why people don't appear as concerned about soccer or the girls in general. 

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Good question. 

Also we have to toss in repetitive concussions as it relates to football and whether the same girls get repetitive concussions in soccer. 

I think the concensus on CTE is it's coming from repetitive concussions. 

Still have to wonder why people don't appear as concerned about soccer or the girls in general. 

Not sure.

Is there a link between CTE and girls soccer? If not, that would probably explain the lack of concern. The cases of CTE I've heard about all involve football players and fighters. That itself doesn't show that female soccer players don't get CTE, but I've never heard about a single case of confirmed CTE or even suspected CTE -- that is, I've never heard about a female soccer player or her family or friends expressing concern over CTE symptoms.  

[HawgGoneIt]

2 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Not sure.

Is there a link between CTE and girls soccer? If not, that would probably explain the lack of concern. The cases of CTE I've heard about all involve football players and fighters. That itself doesn't show that female soccer players don't get CTE, but I've never heard about a single case. 

Well, I think we could just say CTE comes from repetitive concussions and blows to the head over a long period of time. Whether you use the word football or boxing or soccer in there doesn't really matter to me, and I think that is where the rub is coming from with some of these guys. The use of football in almost every sentence or complaint about CTE. 

Girls haven't been donating their brains for study for us to get an idea whether there is signs of CTE that I know of.

I can see where the argument is coming from. If it's concussions that are the primary cause... It shouldn't be that important what sport is causing the concussion. If the kids are getting concussions, we need to try correcting it. 

[Belly Bob]

2 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Well, I think we could just say CTE comes from repetitive concussions and blows to the head over a long period of time. Whether you use the word football or boxing or soccer in there doesn't really matter to me, and I think that is where the rub is coming from with some of these guys. The use of football in almost every sentence or complaint about CTE. 

Girls haven't been donating their brains for study for us to get an idea whether there is signs of CTE that I know of.

I can see where the argument is coming from. If it's concussions that are the primary cause... It shouldn't be that important what sport is causing the concussion. If the kids are getting concussions, we need to try correcting it. 

I agree. I'm just thinking that it's possible that concussions in soccer (maybe because in soccer we don't see the same kind of repetitive blows to the head that is part and parcel of football and boxing, say) don't lead to CTE. 

And as far as evidence of CTE goes, I'm under the impression that it's not uncommon to see signs of it prior to doing an autopsy -- changes in personality, trouble with memory, etc. In boxing, before we knew what CTE was, we called it "pugilistic dementia" and before that, we called it being "punch drunk." I wonder whether there is any evidence of cases like that among female soccer players.