Marvin Hagler the greatest welterweight champion of all time!

[Belly Bob]

Just in case there are any boxing fans who haven't seen the fight and would like to, or any who haven't seen it in years. The bell rings at 13:39.

 

[playballintxandmi]

Hagler is my favorite fighter of all time. I grew up watching him fight. Still I wouldn't have him ranked as the best middleweight ever. It's hard to compare across eras, but men like Stanley Ketchel, Carlos Monzon, Bernard Hopkins, SRR, and Roy Jones, Jr. (at middle) to name just a few would have been difficult style matchups for him (and vice versa of course) and led to some great fights. 

Hagler never went up in weight to see how he would have fared against bigger fighters. Of the fighters I named above only Monzon remained a middleweight his entire career. Hagler was a phenomenal fighter but had difficulty with fighters that were boxers that could take his punch and had speed advantages like Boogaloo Watts or Willie "the Worm" Monroe, Senior. Like Monzon he took on all-comers at Middle and ruled the division with an Iron Fist so it's hard to fault him for not going up in weight.

Monzon was 87-3 for his career and undefeated over the last 13-years of his career, and along the way beat Hall of Famers Nino Benvenutti (twice), Emile Griffith (twice, Monzon was one of 2 men to ever stop the legendary champ), Bennie Briscoe (who resembled Hagler both in stature, look, and fighting style), Rodrigo Valdez (twice), and Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (who is arguably a top 5-top 10 welter of all time). He had one of the most accurate right hands in the history of boxing and like Hagler was blessed with an iron chin. Not saying Monzon was better than Hagler just wanted to bring attention to an often underappreciated legend of the sport. 

To be fair: both of the boxing historians in my family (may they RIP) thought Monzon was better than Hagler. I didn't see Monzon live so I couldn't say, but my dad had the most extensive boxing trivia/fighter trivia knowledge of anyone I've probably ever known in person; before his untimely passing last year we would go to most of the "big" fights in Vegas. At his funeral services classmates of his from Stanford mentioned my dad's encyclopedic knowledge of boxing and  one friend told an anecdote about how a History Professor once asked my dad if he could name every US President in Order and my dad responded, "No, but I can name every Kentucky Derby winner from Aristedes (1st derby winner) to present (1972) and every heavyweight champion from John L. Sullivan to present." Ironically, I would use a similar line in law school while talking to my Admin Law Professor, US SCOTUS Justice Antonin Scalia so the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

The other boxing historian in my family was my great uncle. He was a hall of fame boxing trainer who founded the first co-racial boxing gym in West Texas in the late 20s or early 1930s and was most famous for teaching George Foreman and Aaron Pryor the art of cutting off the ring (my great uncle's specialty). He had one of the largest collection of boxing videos of anyone and was adamant that Monzon would have beaten Hagler over 12 or 15 rounds. As a kid I also remember him telling me that Benny Leonard would have beaten one of my idols (Roberto Duran) at lightweight. I didn't see Monzon or Benny Leonard fight but my great uncle did and he's a hall of fame boxing trainer who worked with George Foreman and Aaron Pryor in his later years so I have to, at the very least, respect his opinion. 

[Belly Bob]

Goddamn. Good post. I'm gonna have to look some of these guys up. 

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, DevilDog said:

Hagler's toughest fight wasn't Hearn.  That was the most exciting.  John the Beast Mugabi gave Marvin hell.  Hagler was a great fighter.  Mugabe tougher than frozen beef Jerky.  Just Brutal.  

That was brutal. When the ref was trying to separate them with about 1:20 left in the round, I thought for a second that he was gonna call the fight. Hagler was landing the left hook over and over again. I thought maybe Mugabi was out on his feet. 

[Belly Bob]

On 6/14/2019 at 7:35 PM, playballintxandmi said:

[...]

To be fair: both of the boxing historians in my family (may they RIP) thought Monzon was better than Hagler. I didn't see Monzon live so I couldn't say, but my dad had the most extensive boxing trivia/fighter trivia knowledge of anyone I've probably ever known in person; before his untimely passing last year we would go to most of the "big" fights in Vegas. At his funeral services classmates of his from Stanford mentioned my dad's encyclopedic knowledge of boxing and  one friend told an anecdote about how a History Professor once asked my dad if he could name every US President in Order and my dad responded, "No, but I can name every Kentucky Derby winner from Aristedes (1st derby winner) to present (1972) and every heavyweight champion from John L. Sullivan to present." Ironically, I would use a similar line in law school while talking to my Admin Law Professor, US SCOTUS Justice Antonin Scalia so the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

The other boxing historian in my family was my great uncle. He was a hall of fame boxing trainer who founded the first co-racial boxing gym in West Texas in the late 20s or early 1930s and was most famous for teaching George Foreman and Aaron Pryor the art of cutting off the ring (my great uncle's specialty). He had one of the largest collection of boxing videos of anyone and was adamant that Monzon would have beaten Hagler over 12 or 15 rounds. As a kid I also remember him telling me that Benny Leonard would have beaten one of my idols (Roberto Duran) at lightweight. I didn't see Monzon or Benny Leonard fight but my great uncle did and he's a hall of fame boxing trainer who worked with George Foreman and Aaron Pryor in his later years so I have to, at the very least, respect his opinion. 

My grandfather was a Golden Gloves champion from West Virginia. He was from a coal mining family out there. He told me that his dad once fought Dempsey at a local show. He told me that years later Dempsey sat with them at a bar and they brought up the fight and Dempsey said that he didn't remember it. Grandpa didn't like that. He said it would have been better of Dempsey if he had said something about Dad's courage or toughness, even if it was true that he couldn't remember the fight.

[NYHSFAN33]

One of the best rounds of boxing I’ve ever seen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3PPhyBUsxaA

[World Citizen]

2 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

But imagine Robinson with Hagler's advantages or Hagler with Robinson's disadvantages. That's how I compare athletes from different generations.

Larry Bird shot below 30 percent from behind the arc in 4 out of his first 5 seasons in the NBA. Then he shot above 40 percent 4 seasons in a row and in 5 out his last 7. It was a new shot for him and for everyone else at the time. He had to figure it out. Imagine if he had grown up shooting 3s.

Interesting.  I usually compare fighters on how I would game plan for.  The fighters that are more difficult to figure out the better the fighter.  Not a foolproof system By any means.  

Do you know Who had the highest % when 3 point shot started?   

[World Citizen]

2 hours ago, playballintxandmi said:

Hagler is my favorite fighter of all time. I grew up watching him fight. Still I wouldn't have him ranked as the best middleweight ever. It's hard to compare across eras, but men like Stanley Ketchel, Carlos Monzon, Bernard Hopkins, SRR, and Roy Jones, Jr. (at middle) to name just a few would have been difficult style matchups for him (and vice versa of course) and led to some great fights. 

Hagler never went up in weight to see how he would have fared against bigger fighters. Of the fighters I named above only Monzon remained a middleweight his entire career. Hagler was a phenomenal fighter but had difficulty with fighters that were boxers that could take his punch and had speed advantages like Boogaloo Watts or Willie "the Worm" Monroe, Senior. Like Monzon he took on all-comers at Middle and ruled the division with an Iron Fist so it's hard to fault him for not going up in weight.

Monzon was 87-3 for his career and undefeated over the last 13-years of his career, and along the way beat Hall of Famers Nino Benvenutti (twice), Emile Griffith (twice, Monzon was one of 2 men to ever stop the legendary champ), Bennie Briscoe (who resembled Hagler both in stature, look, and fighting style), Rodrigo Valdez (twice), and Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (who is arguably a top 5-top 10 welter of all time). He had one of the most accurate right hands in the history of boxing and like Hagler was blessed with an iron chin. Not saying Monzon was better than Hagler just wanted to bring attention to an often underappreciated legend of the sport. 

To be fair: both of the boxing historians in my family (may they RIP) thought Monzon was better than Hagler. I didn't see Monzon live so I couldn't say, but my dad had the most extensive boxing trivia/fighter trivia knowledge of anyone I've probably ever known in person; before his untimely passing last year we would go to most of the "big" fights in Vegas. At his funeral services classmates of his from Stanford mentioned my dad's encyclopedic knowledge of boxing and  one friend told an anecdote about how a History Professor once asked my dad if he could name every US President in Order and my dad responded, "No, but I can name every Kentucky Derby winner from Aristedes (1st derby winner) to present (1972) and every heavyweight champion from John L. Sullivan to present." Ironically, I would use a similar line in law school while talking to my Admin Law Professor, US SCOTUS Justice Antonin Scalia so the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

The other boxing historian in my family was my great uncle. He was a hall of fame boxing trainer who founded the first co-racial boxing gym in West Texas in the late 20s or early 1930s and was most famous for teaching George Foreman and Aaron Pryor the art of cutting off the ring (my great uncle's specialty). He had one of the largest collection of boxing videos of anyone and was adamant that Monzon would have beaten Hagler over 12 or 15 rounds. As a kid I also remember him telling me that Benny Leonard would have beaten one of my idols (Roberto Duran) at lightweight. I didn't see Monzon or Benny Leonard fight but my great uncle did and he's a hall of fame boxing trainer who worked with George Foreman and Aaron Pryor in his later years so I have to, at the very least, respect his opinion. 

That was a awesome story.  Appreciate it.  

Sorry for your father's passing.  

[Blueliner]

3 hours ago, playballintxandmi said:

Hagler is my favorite fighter of all time. I grew up watching him fight. Still I wouldn't have him ranked as the best middleweight ever. It's hard to compare across eras, but men like Stanley Ketchel, Carlos Monzon, Bernard Hopkins, SRR, and Roy Jones, Jr. (at middle) to name just a few would have been difficult style matchups for him (and vice versa of course) and led to some great fights. 

Hagler never went up in weight to see how he would have fared against bigger fighters. Of the fighters I named above only Monzon remained a middleweight his entire career. Hagler was a phenomenal fighter but had difficulty with fighters that were boxers that could take his punch and had speed advantages like Boogaloo Watts or Willie "the Worm" Monroe, Senior. Like Monzon he took on all-comers at Middle and ruled the division with an Iron Fist so it's hard to fault him for not going up in weight.

Monzon was 87-3 for his career and undefeated over the last 13-years of his career, and along the way beat Hall of Famers Nino Benvenutti (twice), Emile Griffith (twice, Monzon was one of 2 men to ever stop the legendary champ), Bennie Briscoe (who resembled Hagler both in stature, look, and fighting style), Rodrigo Valdez (twice), and Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (who is arguably a top 5-top 10 welter of all time). He had one of the most accurate right hands in the history of boxing and like Hagler was blessed with an iron chin. Not saying Monzon was better than Hagler just wanted to bring attention to an often underappreciated legend of the sport. 

To be fair: both of the boxing historians in my family (may they RIP) thought Monzon was better than Hagler. I didn't see Monzon live so I couldn't say, but my dad had the most extensive boxing trivia/fighter trivia knowledge of anyone I've probably ever known in person; before his untimely passing last year we would go to most of the "big" fights in Vegas. At his funeral services classmates of his from Stanford mentioned my dad's encyclopedic knowledge of boxing and  one friend told an anecdote about how a History Professor once asked my dad if he could name every US President in Order and my dad responded, "No, but I can name every Kentucky Derby winner from Aristedes (1st derby winner) to present (1972) and every heavyweight champion from John L. Sullivan to present." Ironically, I would use a similar line in law school while talking to my Admin Law Professor, US SCOTUS Justice Antonin Scalia so the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

The other boxing historian in my family was my great uncle. He was a hall of fame boxing trainer who founded the first co-racial boxing gym in West Texas in the late 20s or early 1930s and was most famous for teaching George Foreman and Aaron Pryor the art of cutting off the ring (my great uncle's specialty). He had one of the largest collection of boxing videos of anyone and was adamant that Monzon would have beaten Hagler over 12 or 15 rounds. As a kid I also remember him telling me that Benny Leonard would have beaten one of my idols (Roberto Duran) at lightweight. I didn't see Monzon or Benny Leonard fight but my great uncle did and he's a hall of fame boxing trainer who worked with George Foreman and Aaron Pryor in his later years so I have to, at the very least, respect his opinion. 

Great post. Thank you 🙏 😎

[DevilDog]

4 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

That was brutal. When the ref was trying to separate them with about 1:20 left in the round, I thought for a second that he was gonna call the fight. Hagler was landing the left hook over and over again. I thought maybe Mugabi was out on his feet. 

If i remember that fight went 11 before he stopped Mugabi.  That was a helluva fight.  He met Hacker and went head ☝.  

[NotBigdaddybloom]

The 6th round of the Mugabi fight was as good a round of boxing as I've ever seen! More power punches were thrown and landed in that one round than some entire fights nowadays. We were spoiled growing up...

 

[Cossacks]

16 hours ago, NYHSFAN33 said:

One of the best rounds of boxing I’ve ever seen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3PPhyBUsxaA

Thanks for sharing, forgot how good that was. One of my favorite rounds along with this!

 

 

[NYHSFAN33]

7 hours ago, Cossacks said:

Thanks for sharing, forgot how good that was. One of my favorite rounds along with this!

 

 

A truly amazing round and trilogy of fights for that matter.  “Just imagine if you bought a ticket” might be the single greatest / truest comment made by Jim Lampley.

[paladin4ever]

I though Hagler beat Leonard...but, Hagler made the mistake of negotiating away his leverage by agreeing to a 12-round fight rather than the traditional 15-rounds for an extra million dollars. Leonard was completely gassed after 12 and would not have seen the bell to 15. This ultimately cost Hagler the title.

[thc6795]

On 6/13/2019 at 6:27 PM, NotBigdaddybloom said:

Change my mind! And Sugar Ray didn’t win that fight!

Marvin was a Middleweight.

[thc6795]

On 6/14/2019 at 5:09 PM, DevilDog said:

Hagler's toughest fight wasn't Hearn.  That was the most exciting.  John the Beast Mugabi gave Marvin hell.  Hagler was a great fighter.  Mugabe tougher than frozen beef Jerky.  Just Brutal.  

  

That was a great fight Gunny. However Duran was Hagler's toughest fight. Duran was ahead on all three scorecards going into round 14. Many including me believe Duran won that fight.

 

It was after the Beast fight that Leonard put his game plan together to fight Hagler.

[NotBigdaddybloom]

I believe the Hagler Leonard fight was at a catch weight.

[thc6795]

Hard to say who the greatest fighter of all time is. There have been a few greats. Hate to say it but Meyweather is the greatest defensive fighter I ever say. Best pure god given talent. Donald Curry, biggest heart Boom Boom Mancini. Peoples Champ Alexis Arguello (my Favorite).

 

Greatest fight I have ever seen is a tie between Marco Antonio Berrera/Morales 1 and Diego Corrales vs Jose Luis Castillo. Hell then you could also through in Mathew Saad Muhamed Vs Dwight Qawi as well. 

[paladin4ever]

The Camden Buzzsaw!!! Qawi's fight with Evander Holyfield at Cruiserweight was epic.

[Belly Bob]

On 6/14/2019 at 9:34 PM, World Citizen said:

Interesting.  I usually compare fighters on how I would game plan for.  The fighters that are more difficult to figure out the better the fighter.  Not a foolproof system By any means.  

Do you know Who had the highest % when 3 point shot started?   

I do not.