ot: cops draw down on unarmed group of 12 year olds

[ORabidOne]

1 minute ago, concha said:

No twisting the fact of the documented report of a gun either.

The cops did it right and everyone went home.

 

One wonders what would have happened if the cops had not had their weapons out and it was the right group of kids and one of them punched a cop's ticket. What would have been your reaction then? 

I know, I know! That black lives matter!

[rockinl]

Just now, Horsefly said:

It was the wrong group of kids RockinL.  The cops explained that at the end.  They were "at the wrong place at the wrong time."

I fully understand that. I also understand that the cops had no idea who they were.

[Horsefly]

Just now, Drummer61 said:

Send your plan to Chicago..How big is your community, what big city do you live in ?? 

 

7 minutes ago, Drummer61 said:

Horsefly would have !!!

I probably would have known the kids and their families as soon as I saw them walking down the street. but that's me. you and I are vastly different.  So of course you'd drawndown bc you wouldn't take time to know the residents and those who you are called to protect and serve. So I expect our answers to be different.

[rockinl]

Just now, Horsefly said:

My whole premise is if they had better relationships in the community, the less this type of action is needed.   nonetheless, they had the wrong group of kids there is no twisting that fact.

How about.........IF LESS KIDS CARRIED GUNS in those neighborhoods??????? Think that might improve relationships? Nope, you go after the PO's first. Always.

[Horsefly]

12 minutes ago, concha said:

No twisting the fact of the documented report of a gun either.

The cops did it right and everyone went home.

 

One wonders what would have happened if the cops had not had their weapons out and it was the right group of kids and one of them punched a cop's ticket. What would have been your reaction then? 

Were the kids in the act of committing a crime?  Did they run, was a gun visible?  Why would they draw a gun on someone based on a loose description?  I'm sure the local residents will want to review local policy.  If I'm innocent would I want cops drawing down on me?  The answer is "no" if I'm being honest.

still, better relationships help in cases like this.

[rockinl]

There is no question that in any Police Department in the country, the PO's acted according to SOP and training in this situation. A "group of kids". "A kid in all black". Based on the video, that group fit the description to a T.

The fact that they were kids means nothing when a deadly weapon is involved. A 12 year old can pull a trigger.

Some of you people who have never had make life and death decisions need to STFU because you really have no clue.

 

I never in my 13 years in law enforcement, ever knew 1 police officer that wanted to shoot a kid. Some of you know it alls have been led to believe that cops are out just waiting to kill someone.

What if that had been the right kid? Not a peep out of you, right? What if the kid with the revolver had killed someone? 

Idiots.

[Horsefly]

6 minutes ago, rockinl said:

How about.........IF LESS KIDS CARRIED GUNS in those neighborhoods??????? Think that might improve relationships? Nope, you go after the PO's first. Always.

It's mutual RockinL, who is the authority figure in this situation, the cops or the kids?  id prefer cops live in the communities they serve, gives stronger meaning to community police.

[Horsefly]

7 minutes ago, rockinl said:

There is no question that in any Police Department in the country, the PO's acted according to SOP and training in this situation. A "group of kids". "A kid in all black". Based on the video, that group fit the description to a T.

The fact that they were kids means nothing when a deadly weapon is involved. A 12 year old can pull a trigger.

Some of you people who have never had make life and death decisions need to STFU because you really have no clue.

 

I never in my 13 years in law enforcement, ever knew 1 police officer that wanted to shoot a kid. Some of you know it alls have been led to believe that cops are out just waiting to kill someone.

What if that had been the right kid? Not a peep out of you, right? What if the kid with the revolver had killed someone? 

Idiots.

No one said they wanted to shoot a kid or hate kids or any of that.  What was said is that if cops had strong relationships the less this aggressiveness is warranted.  Wearing black is a loose description btw, that is not a strong description.

the most important thing is what happened when it was identified the kids were the wrong kids.  Saying they were in the wrong place at the wrong time is pretty weak, but neither you nor I are there to know how they are bridging trust in that community.

[rockinl]

Just now, Horsefly said:

You're overreacting.  No one said they wanted to shoot a kid or hate kids or any of that.  What was said is that if cops had strong relationships the less this aggressiveness is warranted.  Wearing black is a loose description btw, that is not a strong description.

Like I said, you dont have a clue how it works. A kid in all black and a kid in red. Did you even watch the damn video?

 

Go to an Academy. Try it your way in some of those neighborhoods.

Good luck.

Overreacting? I see you saying that to a lot of people on here. Im not your guy. Trust me on that.

I never overreact. I spent many years where my life depended on me not overreacting.

Maybe you need more real life experience in life or death situations.

 

[Horsefly]

 

As young as 12 I was shot at with a .22 by a lunatic cousin, unfortunately I was the target, fortunately it missed.  So please spare me about life lessons.  You know me as Horselfy on a HSFB website, nothing else.

anyways.  My point was if the cops had better relationships in the community the less this would happen. It's not rocket science, the more they know, the better to respond accordingly.

here's my original response: "The stronger the community relationships the less this type of aggressiveness is needed, the weaker the relationship with the community, this type of behavior is the result."

[SOCIntellectualProperty]

1 hour ago, ORabidOne said:

Right of wrong, BLACKS LIVES MATTER made enemies forEVER!

that's right.... such inflammatory rhetoric should be dealt with.... tf

[SOCIntellectualProperty]

47 minutes ago, rockinl said:

There is no question that in any Police Department in the country, the PO's acted according to SOP and training in this situation. A "group of kids". "A kid in all black". Based on the video, that group fit the description to a T.

The fact that they were kids means nothing when a deadly weapon is involved. A 12 year old can pull a trigger.

Some of you people who have never had make life and death decisions need to STFU because you really have no clue.

 

I never in my 13 years in law enforcement, ever knew 1 police officer that wanted to shoot a kid. Some of you know it alls have been led to believe that cops are out just waiting to kill someone.

What if that had been the right kid? Not a peep out of you, right? What if the kid with the revolver had killed someone? 

Idiots.

not to get off subject... as many here already have

 

but would you, as a former cop, have handled Tamir Rice's situation the same way the cop that murdered him (and went scott free) did?

[SOCIntellectualProperty]

1 hour ago, aZjimbo said:

There was a case similar to this back in NJ. Cops were called where supposedly a kid was brandishing a gun at a park. Cop comes to the park on the call. Kid winds up running away and gets cornered in an alley on a gray spring day. Kid turns around and cop shoots the kid dead. A whole lot of lives changed in an instant. If that kid would have just not run the rest would never have happened. Real bad situation. 

there was also a case of kid supposedly brandishing a gun in the park.. caller even took the time to tell dispatcher that the gun was mroe than likely fake...

 

in this scenario, the boy didnt dun at all... the cop swiftly pulled up on the kid, immediately pulled out his gun and within 2 seconds, shot this 12 year old dead

 

 

 

[hardhit1]

12 minutes ago, SOCIntellectualProperty said:

there was also a case of kid supposedly brandishing a gun in the park.. caller even took the time to tell dispatcher that the gun was mroe than likely fake...

 

in this scenario, the boy didnt dun at all... the cop swiftly pulled up on the kid, immediately pulled out his gun and within 2 seconds, shot this 12 year old dead

 

 

 

Cleveland was that one

just awful!

[rockinl]

Just now, SOCIntellectualProperty said:

not to get off subject... as many here already have

 

but would you, as a former cop, have handled Tamir Rice's situation the same way the cop that murdered him (and went scott free) did?

Based on the FACTS presented to the Grand Jury, "On November 26, the day a video of the shooting was released, Chief Tomba is quoted as saying, "Loehmann shouted from the car three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car." "The entire incident happened in less than two seconds"

 

Everyone in that park thought the pistol was real. 

If Tamir Rice pulled a replica of a 9mm semi automatic handgun, that lacked the orange tip, letting you know it was a fake, and you had a pistol in your hand, would you fire?

Like I said earlier, you try and rely on training, but sometimes these incidents happen so fast, it's almost impossible to say for sure what you would do.

 

Terrible situation for everyone involved.

[HawgGoneIt]

Speaking to the video from the OP...

I think the cops were probably warranted to handle the situation with the kids as they did, given the information that they had. While they're probably well within their rights to draw down on the kids like that, maybe that wasn't necessary at all. I mean, they had clean line of site and no kid was holding a gun in hand. Perhaps you get out and stand behind the door just as the officer did, but without drawing straight away. Maybe you have your hand on the gun at ready, in case you see a kid reach or whatever. It's a tough thing. These were kids after all. 12 years old kids playing on the sidewalk and doing kid stuff. 

I personally had more trouble with the cops ordering the person that was standing on their own porch inside when that person was on their own property and not a part of the investigation etc. 

Are we in a police state here in America now?  It seems a lot like as a citizen, we deserve Andy Griffith/Sheriff Andy Taylor types for our cops and all too often we end up with the Terminator or Barney Fife. 

Cops in Sylvester, Ga. last week went to the High School, and basically pulled entire classes of kids out into the hallway and patted them down. No probable cause. I mean if they walk a dog down through and it alerts on a classroom, and they take the kids to the hall, walk the dog through the class and the dog doesn't alert on a bag or desk, then maybe you start asking the kids questions or whatever. Just patting down every student in the school is ridiculous.

http://www.walb.com/story/35168276/worth-co-sheriff-defends-controversial-school-search

 

 

Any way, at risk of changing the subject, but staying kind of on topic about police behavior... Does anyone else watch LivePD on A&E Friday and Saturday nights? I find myself impressed most of the time at the police/civilian interactions. Of course, this is being filmed live and there are always cameras rolling on these officers, so I'm pretty sure they act accordingly. 

When I see civilians trying to film the police, the cops often seem to have a problem with it and act totally different than the officers on LivePD. 

 

This is why I say... FTP. Film The Police. Film them, film them, film them. 

[rockinl]

Just now, SOCIntellectualProperty said:

there was also a case of kid supposedly brandishing a gun in the park.. caller even took the time to tell dispatcher that the gun was mroe than likely fake...

The dispatcher did not relay that to the officers. You left that part out.

in this scenario, the boy didnt dun at all... the cop swiftly pulled up on the kid, immediately pulled out his gun and within 2 seconds, shot this 12 year old dead

After telling him 3 times to shows him his hands. You left that part out too.

Still a horrible conclusion.

 

 

[concha]

Are You Democrat Or Republican?

Are you a Democrat or a Republican? Here's a little test to help you decide:

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock .40 cal, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.

What do you do?

Democrat's Answer

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor? Or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids?

Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children?

Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street so deserted?

We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.

This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for few days and try to come to a consensus.

Republican's Answer

BANG! BANG!

Extra Credit: Southern Republican's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.....(sounds of reloading).

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silvertips or Federal Hydra-Shoks?"

[HawgGoneIt]

1 minute ago, concha said:

Are You Democrat Or Republican?

Are you a Democrat or a Republican? Here's a little test to help you decide:

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock .40 cal, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.

What do you do?

Democrat's Answer

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor? Or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids?

Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children?

Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street so deserted?

We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.

This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for few days and try to come to a consensus.

Republican's Answer

BANG! BANG!

Extra Credit: Southern Republican's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.....(sounds of reloading).

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silvertips or Federal Hydra-Shoks?"

 

Since the guy has the knife raised and I can see it plainly, I'd just kick the guy in the penis. 

 

 

 

 

or in the ding ding

 

 

[aZjimbo]

1 hour ago, SOCIntellectualProperty said:

there was also a case of kid supposedly brandishing a gun in the park.. caller even took the time to tell dispatcher that the gun was mroe than likely fake...

 

in this scenario, the boy didnt dun at all... the cop swiftly pulled up on the kid, immediately pulled out his gun and within 2 seconds, shot this 12 year old dead

 

 

 

Not good.

[World Citizen]

2 hours ago, Horsefly said:

 

As young as 12 I was shot at with a .22 by a lunatic cousin, unfortunately I was the target, fortunately it missed.  So please spare me about life lessons.  You know me as Horselfy on a HSFB website, nothing else.

anyways.  My point was if the cops had better relationships in the community the less this would happen. It's not rocket science, the more they know, the better to respond accordingly.

here's my original response: "The stronger the community relationships the less this type of aggressiveness is needed, the weaker the relationship with the community, this type of behavior is the result."

I seriously do not understand how they are missing your point, it is very frustrating to read.  Its a simple enough concept.  Good luck.

[Horsefly]

1 minute ago, World Citizen said:

I seriously do not understand how they are missing your point, it is very frustrating to read.  Its a simple enough concept.  Good luck.

Yea, one reason I don't repond too much in these posts like I use to.

[rockinl]

Just now, World Citizen said:

 Its a simple enough concept.  Good luck.

So is raising kids not to carry guns at 12 years old. Mine never did.

[SOCIntellectualProperty]

2 hours ago, rockinl said:

Based on the FACTS presented to the Grand Jury, "On November 26, the day a video of the shooting was released, Chief Tomba is quoted as saying, "Loehmann shouted from the car three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car." "The entire incident happened in less than two seconds"

 

Everyone in that park thought the pistol was real. 

If Tamir Rice pulled a replica of a 9mm semi automatic handgun, that lacked the orange tip, letting you know it was a fake, and you had a pistol in your hand, would you fire?

Like I said earlier, you try and rely on training, but sometimes these incidents happen so fast, it's almost impossible to say for sure what you would do.

 

Terrible situation for everyone involved.

* everyone in the park did not believe the gun was real... including the person that called 911

 

* you capitalized facts as if... just because a Chief was quoted as saying he yelled 3 times doesn't make it true... nor does it make too much sense... just barely plausible for an already sympathetic jury to set the cop free...

 

yelling from the car was speeding towards him?

 

 

To to answer your question, if a kid had a gun... that was not pointed at me or anyone else... I would not have shot him... EVEN if I knew the gun was real....

I would have least given him more than 2nseconds to put the gun down

 

 

[SOCIntellectualProperty]

4 hours ago, concha said:

No twisting the fact of the documented report of a gun either.

The cops did it right and everyone went home.

 

One wonders what would have happened if the cops had not had their weapons out and it was the right group of kids and one of them punched a cop's ticket. What would have been your reaction then? 

So... what if the 12 year old kids panicked after seeing a gun pointed at them and took off running?

 

would they deserve death?