De La Salle is a machine

[GloryDays]

1 hour ago, World Citizen said:

Glory, always appreciated your post. Esp the humor. How do you see the Open game as far as DLS goes? For me, its hard to judge  how much they have improved given the teams they have played. I'm hoping they shock the world but I don't know If they even have a punchers chance.

I'm not all that optimistic about this one.  DLS is more one dimensional this year than they were in '13 (I do think the RB is better this year tho).  The offense is not going to be able to compete in a track meet, so there's a lot riding on the defense.  Not only do they have to get off the field without giving up points (no short order), they're going to need some big takeaways.  

 

Just my two pennies, hopefully there's an ace in the hole somewhere on Winton Dr.

[ThunderRam]

8 hours ago, dntn31 said:

You can't easily dismiss the overall talent of a team based on one player. Sure QB is arguably the most important player, but being "loaded on both sides of the ball" is not defined by just your QB. Also, I don't believe your perception of Mitchell is his fault or is indicative of a lack of talent. I think you can blame Chad Johnson and/or Negro for trying to force something on Mitchell that he was not/not yet ready for earlier in the season. The schemes and play-calling at the end of the year have been much more suited for Mitchell's strengths and I think the results speak for themselves. Also, Mitchell already has offers from Pac-12 schools, so your bar is being set pretty high if your definition of "drop off" is going from one Pac-12 QB to another.

They had one loss on the field by 3 points to a pretty good Poly team, and the only reason they lost that game was due to an act of God (fog) and a phantom JuJu Smith catch (that wasn't a catch). The same core group of players that played on '13 also played on '12 (minus Sean McGrew).

That still doesn't say anything about the talent level of the teams. Talent isn't the only factor that goes into winning, unless you have a severely limited understanding of the game at this level. Injuries, turnovers, play calling, the emotional state of 14-18 year olds etc. are all extremely important factors when you are playing tough competition game-in, game-out. If there wasn't an hour delay before the '14 Gorman game and the team actually showed up for the 1st half and if Rosen and McGrew don't commit uncharacteristic turnovers in the '14 finals and if Quentin Davis doesn't get injured the week before the PAC-5 finals, things look a lot different and people who perceive the talent levels of teams based solely on W-L suddenly start calling '14 and '15 the greatest team to ever, yada, yada, you get the point. It's extremely difficult to win every game at any level of football as long as you play decent competition. SJB didn't go undefeated in '13 because the '13 team was any better than the other teams from '12 - '16. They were able to catch lightning in a bottle, where none of the other extenuating circumstances that can influence the outcome of games (like the 15 phantom holding calls in the 2nd half against DLS) actually ended up making a difference. If Gavin Wyndes (this is not a guy who you typically use to define the talent of a team) doesn't intercept that DLS pass in the 4th quarter and they march down the field and score the game winning TD, would that make SJB any worse of a team in '13, simply because some "unknown" backup made the play of his life when it counted?

 

Well, my first retort will be an acknowledgement that you should and do know more about SJB than I. I wouldn't argue otherwise. But that doesn't necessarily mean you are right in this instance. I didn't see every game of every team, but I did see each of those teams at least a couple of times. But beyond my own opinion are the opinions of the SoCal'ers that have followed the SS for many, many years. Not saying that nobody agrees with you, but the consensus has been that the '13 Braves team is among the best of all time. I don't know anybody other than you that has gone on record believing that any other Braves belongs in the discussion. Have they fielded other elite teams? Sure. But not at that same level.

You mention the '12 team only having one loss on the field. But part of being a great team is taking care of business both on and off the field. That team had to forfeit games due to an ineligible player, for whatever reason that it happened. When you talk about all-time great teams, everything factors in. The 2013 team didn't have that happen to them. Regardless, even if you gloss over the forfeits, they still played 2 close games against Jordan, UT and a JSerra team that got curb stomped by every other team in the Trinity.

And in the end, that '12 Braves team lost to a POLY team that wasn't near as good as the CC and DLS teams the Braves took out in 2013. That's not even debatable. Do you think either of those teams would have lost to '12 Granite Bay as POLY did?

As for the QB debate, the difference between Re-al Mitchell and Josh Rosen is night and day. One is a great athlete playing HS football while the other was a great HS QB playing HS football. Big difference. The '15 and '16 teams would have to be clear cut more talented from top to bottom than the '13 team to make it a real argument --- and they weren't/aren't. At best, it's close to equal. But I personally don't believe either team rivals '13's line. Lastly, while many from the '13 team were also on the '12 team, those players were more developed, experiened and flat out better than they were in '12. As evidence, they dominated their games to a larger degree.

[Sammyswordsman]

 

I attended the SBG in 2013 and I can tell you that SJB played extremely conservative especially after they got out to a 2 score lead.  Negro did not let Rosen air it out at all.  They were only there for the "W".  Nothing more.

 

 

[dntn31]

15 minutes ago, ThunderRam said:

But beyond my own opinion are the opinions of the SoCal'ers that have followed the SS for many, many years. Not saying that nobody agrees with you, but the consensus has been that the '13 Braves team is among the best of all time. I don't know anybody other than you that has gone on record believing that any other Braves belongs in the discussion. Have they fielded other elite teams? Sure. But not at that same level.

Taking that opinion is an easy thing to do, when a team like that goes undefeated. I'm not saying '13 was chopped liver, just that the other teams from '12 to '16 should be in the discussion and that pre-Davis-injury '15 was clearly the best. I'm not saying '15 was orders of magnitude better than '13, just that they were better and that distinction was clear. I'll touch more on '12 later. I also think some DLS fans like to comfort themselves with this opinion to ease the sting of losing in '13; explaining away the fluke of a loss because SJB had a "once in a generation team". That is complete nonsense.

Of course you have to factor in everything in the season when qualifying the success of a season, but I don't think that necessarily correlates to team strength or talent. To put it another way, would you consider '16 SJB to be "better than" '15 SJB? If so, why? Because they beat Cen10 and won CIFSS D1 (and potentially State)? I would be surprised if anyone who's followed closely and watched all of the games said that '16 was "better than" or "more talented" than '15, I know I wouldn't. Clearly, '16 has been a more successful season than '15 in terms of postseason success and titles, but I think it's shortsighted to conflate the two aspects. If you can see the logic in this, then I'm not entirely sure what's so different about comparing '15 and '13 in the same way (other than the fact that '13 never lost).

28 minutes ago, ThunderRam said:

You mention the '12 team only having one loss on the field. But part of being a great team is taking care of business both on and off the field. That team had to forfeit games due to an ineligible player, for whatever reason that it happened. When you talk about all-time great teams, everything factors in. The 2013 team didn't have that happen to them. Regardless, even if you gloss over the forfeits, they still played 2 close games against Jordan, UT and a JSerra team that got curb stomped by every other team in the Trinity.

And in the end, that '12 Braves team lost to a POLY team that wasn't near as good as the CC and DLS teams the Braves took out in 2013. That's not even debatable. Do you think either of those teams would have lost to '12 Granite Bay as POLY did?

Lastly, while many from the '13 team were also on the '12 team, those players were more developed, experiened and flat out better than they were in '12. As evidence, they dominated their games to a larger degree.

I don't think that the '12 team was better than the '13, just that the two teams weren't that far apart in terms of overall strength and talent. From someone who was in attendance at that Poly game, it's actually incredible that the game was able to played out and finished. You literally couldn't see the far half of the field from the bleachers. I'm not making excuses, because both teams had to play in those conditions, but I think without the fog SJB beats POLY, MD and whoever they face in the SBGs. Now, we are talking about a team that went undefeated on the field (the ineligible player forfeit issues withstanding) and I think the discussion and comparison, between '12 and '13 are completely reframed in most people's minds. This is all hypothetical, but it wasn't that far off from reality.

36 minutes ago, ThunderRam said:

As for the QB debate, the difference between Re-al Mitchell and Josh Rosen is night and day. One is a great athlete playing HS football while the other was a great HS QB playing HS football. Big difference. The '15 and '16 teams would have to be clear cut more talented from top to bottom than the '13 team to make it a real argument --- and they weren't/aren't. At worst, it's close to equal. But I personally don't believe either team rivals '13's line.

If you are comparing Mitchell to Rosen, then you need to limit your scope in comparing years and exclude '15. If you want to compare Rosen and Davis then you've established the proper context for comparing '15 to any other year. For the record, I don't think the '16 team is better or more talented than the '13 team, but I think they aren't far off. 

I'll put it another way, if I were to rate the teams (arbitrarily giving the best team a score of 100) I would rate them like this:

'15 - 100
'13 - 97
'14 - 95
'16 - 94
'12 - 92

[PrepGridiron]

8 minutes ago, dntn31 said:

Taking that opinion is an easy thing to do, when a team like that goes undefeated. I'm not saying '13 was chopped liver, just that the other teams from '12 to '16 should be in the discussion and that pre-Davis-injury '15 was clearly the best. I'm not saying '15 was orders of magnitude better than '13, just that they were better and that distinction was clear. I'll touch more on '12 later. I also think some DLS fans like to comfort themselves with this opinion to ease the sting of losing in '13; explaining away the fluke of a loss because SJB had a "once in a generation team". That is complete nonsense.

Of course you have to factor in everything in the season when qualifying the success of a season, but I don't think that necessarily correlates to team strength or talent. To put it another way, would you consider '16 SJB to be "better than" '15 SJB? If so, why? Because they beat Cen10 and won CIFSS D1 (and potentially State)? I would be surprised if anyone who's followed closely and watched all of the games said that '16 was "better than" or "more talented" than '15, I know I wouldn't. Clearly, '16 has been a more successful season than '15 in terms of postseason success and titles, but I think it's shortsighted to conflate the two aspects. If you can see the logic in this, then I'm not entirely sure what's so different about comparing '15 and '13 in the same way (other than the fact that '13 never lost).

I don't think that the '12 team was better than the '13, just that the two teams weren't that far apart in terms of overall strength and talent. From someone who was in attendance at that Poly game, it's actually incredible that the game was able to played out and finished. You literally couldn't see the far half of the field from the bleachers. I'm not making excuses, because both teams had to play in those conditions, but I think without the fog SJB beats POLY, MD and whoever they face in the SBGs. Now, we are talking about a team that went undefeated on the field (the ineligible player forfeit issues withstanding) and I think the discussion and comparison, between '12 and '13 are completely reframed in most people's minds. This is all hypothetical, but it wasn't that far off from reality.

If you are comparing Mitchell to Rosen, then you need to limit your scope in comparing years and exclude '15. If you want to compare Rosen and Davis then you've established the proper context for comparing '15 to any other year. For the record, I don't think the '16 team is better or more talented than the '13 team, but I think they aren't far off. 

I'll put it another way, if I were to rate the teams (arbitrarily giving the best team a score of 100) I would rate them like this:

'15 - 100
'13 - 97
'14 - 95
'16 - 94
'12 - 92

Great insight. We'll never know any of this stuff. I always wonder if Custer doesn't get hurt on the opening kickoff does DLS win in '13. I know they game planned heavily assuming Custer would play. 

Same with '15. DLS was very good. I still have the image of Asiasi and Boss as Soph's crying after the loss to SJB in '13. I have to believe they would have had extra motivation to show up if it was SJB as opposed to CC. 

We'll never know any of this. 

I also realize I'm biased, but I'd have DLS as slight dogs in '13 and slight favorites in '15. This year, it's just different. On paper, DLS is just not in the same class as SJB this year. 

[ThunderRam]

35 minutes ago, dntn31 said:

Taking that opinion is an easy thing to do, when a team like that goes undefeated. I'm not saying '13 was chopped liver, just that the other teams from '12 to '16 should be in the discussion and that pre-Davis-injury '15 was clearly the best. I'm not saying '15 was orders of magnitude better than '13, just that they were better and that distinction was clear. I'll touch more on '12 later. I also think some DLS fans like to comfort themselves with this opinion to ease the sting of losing in '13; explaining away the fluke of a loss because SJB had a "once in a generation team". That is complete nonsense.

Of course you have to factor in everything in the season when qualifying the success of a season, but I don't think that necessarily correlates to team strength or talent. To put it another way, would you consider '16 SJB to be "better than" '15 SJB? If so, why? Because they beat Cen10 and won CIFSS D1 (and potentially State)? I would be surprised if anyone who's followed closely and watched all of the games said that '16 was "better than" or "more talented" than '15, I know I wouldn't. Clearly, '16 has been a more successful season than '15 in terms of postseason success and titles, but I think it's shortsighted to conflate the two aspects. If you can see the logic in this, then I'm not entirely sure what's so different about comparing '15 and '13 in the same way (other than the fact that '13 never lost).

I don't think that the '12 team was better than the '13, just that the two teams weren't that far apart in terms of overall strength and talent. From someone who was in attendance at that Poly game, it's actually incredible that the game was able to played out and finished. You literally couldn't see the far half of the field from the bleachers. I'm not making excuses, because both teams had to play in those conditions, but I think without the fog SJB beats POLY, MD and whoever they face in the SBGs. Now, we are talking about a team that went undefeated on the field (the ineligible player forfeit issues withstanding) and I think the discussion and comparison, between '12 and '13 are completely reframed in most people's minds. This is all hypothetical, but it wasn't that far off from reality.

If you are comparing Mitchell to Rosen, then you need to limit your scope in comparing years and exclude '15. If you want to compare Rosen and Davis then you've established the proper context for comparing '15 to any other year. For the record, I don't think the '16 team is better or more talented than the '13 team, but I think they aren't far off. 

I'll put it another way, if I were to rate the teams (arbitrarily giving the best team a score of 100) I would rate them like this:

'15 - 100
'13 - 97
'14 - 95
'16 - 94
'12 - 92

 

I'll echo what Prep said. Lots of good points and things to consider.

Like I said, you know more about SJB than myself -- I'm more a casual fan that sees a couple games a year. Usually one or two live via TV/stream and a few more when I have time to back and review video. But nowhere near as extensive as you nor do I know all the insiders stuff that you would. But I do watch a fair amount and also do a lot of research, so I'm not totally uninformed.

I fully agree about not just judging on SS/State titles because not every season is created equal. Sometimes a team has to go through better teams to get there and win it. Totally get where you are coming from there. And it could easily be argued that the CC team you lost to last season was a notch or two better than the one the '13 beat.

Just curious how you see the line play between the different teams? I was so overly impressed by the '13 team during that run that perhaps I haven't given the more recent teams their just due. I still think '13 was better there, but wonder how you see it. Keep in mind, I'm a Buckeyes fan and have watched Wyatt Davis a little bit due to selfish fan interest.

[GloryDays]

2 hours ago, dntn31 said:

 I also think some DLS fans like to comfort themselves with this opinion to ease the sting of losing in '13; explaining away the fluke of a loss because SJB had a "once in a generation team". That is complete nonsense.

 

 

That's good Varsity Boarding right there.

 

No ointment needed here, I hung the cleats up long ago.

[World Citizen]

2 hours ago, Sammyswordsman said:

 

I attended the SBG in 2013 and I can tell you that SJB played extremely conservative especially after they got out to a 2 score lead.  Negro did not let Rosen air it out at all.  They were only there for the "W".  Nothing more.

 

 

Are you saying they didn't want to score more than 20?  That's hilarious. ?

[BobbySanchez]

2 hours ago, dntn31 said:

Taking that opinion is an easy thing to do, when a team like that goes undefeated. I'm not saying '13 was chopped liver, just that the other teams from '12 to '16 should be in the discussion and that pre-Davis-injury '15 was clearly the best. I'm not saying '15 was orders of magnitude better than '13, just that they were better and that distinction was clear. I'll touch more on '12 later. I also think some DLS fans like to comfort themselves with this opinion to ease the sting of losing in '13; explaining away the fluke of a loss because SJB had a "once in a generation team". That is complete nonsense.

Of course you have to factor in everything in the season when qualifying the success of a season, but I don't think that necessarily correlates to team strength or talent. To put it another way, would you consider '16 SJB to be "better than" '15 SJB? If so, why? Because they beat Cen10 and won CIFSS D1 (and potentially State)? I would be surprised if anyone who's followed closely and watched all of the games said that '16 was "better than" or "more talented" than '15, I know I wouldn't. Clearly, '16 has been a more successful season than '15 in terms of postseason success and titles, but I think it's shortsighted to conflate the two aspects. If you can see the logic in this, then I'm not entirely sure what's so different about comparing '15 and '13 in the same way (other than the fact that '13 never lost).

I don't think that the '12 team was better than the '13, just that the two teams weren't that far apart in terms of overall strength and talent. From someone who was in attendance at that Poly game, it's actually incredible that the game was able to played out and finished. You literally couldn't see the far half of the field from the bleachers. I'm not making excuses, because both teams had to play in those conditions, but I think without the fog SJB beats POLY, MD and whoever they face in the SBGs. Now, we are talking about a team that went undefeated on the field (the ineligible player forfeit issues withstanding) and I think the discussion and comparison, between '12 and '13 are completely reframed in most people's minds. This is all hypothetical, but it wasn't that far off from reality.

If you are comparing Mitchell to Rosen, then you need to limit your scope in comparing years and exclude '15. If you want to compare Rosen and Davis then you've established the proper context for comparing '15 to any other year. For the record, I don't think the '16 team is better or more talented than the '13 team, but I think they aren't far off. 

I'll put it another way, if I were to rate the teams (arbitrarily giving the best team a score of 100) I would rate them like this:

'15 - 100
'13 - 97
'14 - 95
'16 - 94
'12 - 92

Either this is a really passionate SJB fan or this is Coach Negro.

[World Citizen]

4 hours ago, GloryDays said:

I'm not all that optimistic about this one.  DLS is more one dimensional this year than they were in '13 (I do think the RB is better this year tho).  The offense is not going to be able to compete in a track meet, so there's a lot riding on the defense.  Not only do they have to get off the field without giving up points (no short order), they're going to need some big takeaways.  

 

Just my two pennies, hopefully there's an ace in the hole somewhere on Winton Dr.

I agree and think SJB O vs DLS D will be fun to watch.

[dntn31]

13 minutes ago, BobbySanchez said:

Either this is a really passionate SJB fan or this is Coach Negro.

Busted...

[15yds4gibberish]

43 minutes ago, dntn31 said:

Busted...

Quality thread boys...

C'mon dntn31, come up next weekend.  You can enjoy watching your boys, and then magnanimously buy us Norcal folk a beer afterwards...It's the right thing to do...

[Sammyswordsman]

1 hour ago, World Citizen said:

Are you saying they didn't want to score more than 20?  That's hilarious. ?

I'm saying they thought 20 would be enough to win as long as they didn't turn the ball over.  They were right.  Barely

[dntn31]

4 minutes ago, 15yds4gibberish said:

Quality thread boys...

C'mon dntn31, come up next weekend.  You can enjoy watching your boys, and then magnanimously buy us Norcal folk a beer afterwards...It's the right thing to do...

Believe me, I'd like nothing more. Combination of having family stuff that day plus a 2 year old makes the logistics difficult though.

[dntn31]

2 hours ago, ThunderRam said:

Just curious how you see the line play between the different teams? I was so overly impressed by the '13 team during that run that perhaps I haven't given the more recent teams their just due. I still think '13 was better there, but wonder how you see it. Keep in mind, I'm a Buckeyes fan and have watched Wyatt Davis a little bit due to selfish fan interest.

FWIW, I'm not ignoring this. I just need to wait until I'm not on my phone to address this question properly.

I will say this for now, Wyatt Davis is the best lineman (O or D) in the Negro era.

[Sammyswordsman]

1 hour ago, World Citizen said:

I agree and think SJB O vs DLS D will be fun to watch.

You must be a fan of Boatraces as well.  Good for you.

[Sammyswordsman]

1 minute ago, dntn31 said:

FWIW, I'm not ignoring this. I just need to wait until I'm not on my phone to address this question properly.

I will say this for now, Wyatt Davis is the best lineman (O or D) in the Negro era.

Better than Big Mama?

[dntn31]

Just now, Sammyswordsman said:

Better than Big Mama?

Yes. Damien is bigger (slightly), but Wyatt is more athletic.

[PrepGridiron]

1 minute ago, Sammyswordsman said:

You must be a fan of Boatraces as well.  Good for you.

Ride that SJB horse deep into the sunset, Sammy!

[BobbySanchez]

1 hour ago, dntn31 said:

Believe me, I'd like nothing more. Combination of having family stuff that day plus a 2 year old makes the logistics difficult though.

Aren't you going to be coaching that, coach Negro?

[fballfan]

IMO, the 2013 SJB team easily the best defense.   Dline, linebackers, defensive backs all solid and deep.   And Jaleel Wadood a difference maker.   I still haven't seen another safety make so many tackles at the LOS.    

[dntn31]

3 hours ago, fballfan said:

IMO, the 2013 SJB team easily the best defense.   Dline, linebackers, defensive backs all solid and deep.   And Jaleel Wadood a difference maker.   I still haven't seen another safety make so many tackles at the LOS.    

And yet

'15 PA: 14.7

'13 PA: 16.5

[Son of Mountain John]

Here is how I rated California HSFB teams of the last 20 years:

 

#1: DLS 2001

#2: LBP 2001

#3: SJB 2013

[The Stache]

12 minutes ago, Son of Mountain John said:

Here is how I rated California HSFB teams of the last 20 years:

 

#1: DLS 2001

#2: LBP 2001

#3: SJB 2013

No arguements from me.

[World Citizen]

15 hours ago, Sammyswordsman said:

I'm saying they thought 20 would be enough to win as long as they didn't turn the ball over.  They were right.  Barely

Yes they were right. I thought holding SJB to 3 pts in 2nd half was very impressive but you just blew that up.  Dang it Sammy.