The state of HS football in America

[BanThisMan]

4 minutes ago, HSFBfan said:

They look nice 

Let's not forget that when STA was profiled in the New Yorker about their efforts to limit head contact and make practices safer this was your brilliant response.

https://www.prepgridiron.com/topic/687-new-yorker-article-on-football-safety-sta-season/

On 1/4/2017 at 9:53 AM, HSFBfan said:

Or lets ruin the game even more. I cant stand what they are doing to sports. Its almost impossible to watch 

The game is being ruined because adults are trying to limit the exposure of teenagers to traumatic brain injury.

You can't make up this kind of stupid.

[LiberalDonaldTrump]

1 minute ago, HSFBfan said:

They look nice 

Shit, they better look nice since literally Every Helmet cost over $1500 each

 

 

That Donor Spent $230,000 so kids he’s not even affiliated with can be safe

@SJR 04 is this guy still anonymous? 

[bigrobstercraws]

The concussion scare is odd since parents are choosing sports with nearly identical concussion rates in lacrosse and soccer instead of football. It's one thing if they're playing badminton or whatever instead, but to transition into another concussion sport is odd. 

[Pops]

16 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

I hear you. And I saw @HawgGoneIt's post. I, myself, am also suspicious of the claim that declining participation is due to a lack of competitive equity, though it's an empirical question, and it may a contributing factor. I don't know. Your analysis of what's going on in Little League counts in favor of that possibility. 

I was pointing out the apparent tension in Negro's view that IMG should be banned because they take other teams' players but that there is nothing infelicitous about SJB's current transfer policies, accounts of declining participation notwithstanding.

Fwiw, my best analogy is little league/ youth soccer and the advent of travel teams as early as 9 or 10

imho, the non-elite kids (or kids that just don’t choose to travel) get disenfranchised faster and more easily than they would without those teams — again, just MHO

i think of bigger concern is just what it does to the kids that either are elite or think they’re elite — parents and kids usually have an exaggerated version of their own abilities and potential and will pursue whatever gains are to be made (fame, fortune, D1, etc) out of proportion to (ie) a regular hs experience with friends focused on a balanced perspective of academics and extra curriculars without being designated “athlete”.  How many kids really get a D1 BECAUSE they were part of SJB, MD, IMG etc?  Can we name one?  How many kids switch schools, leave their friends, and then find out they’re a small fish in a big pond?  Yada yada 

im not alleging right and wrong — I have an opinion, which is all it is — I do think the topic is worthy of some discussion on this board beyond calling them all “ballers”.  MD clearly having those discussions internally even in the wake of back to back MNCs after not winning their section for 20 years.  

[Gospeeder]

Not sure if the disparity among super recruited teams vs non super recruited teams has an effect or not relative to the drop in hs football participants but what I do know is that today's players are the equivalent to "engineered specimens" for the game.

They are bigger, faster and much more powerful than decades past. The collisions and stress put on one's body are often hellacious and as much as I have been part of this game throughout my early life I would certainly question whether I would allow my kids to play and deal with that in today's era. I am pretty sure a lot of today's parents are thinking the same thing before giving their kids the green light to play.

[HawgGoneIt]

8 minutes ago, Gospeeder said:

Not sure if the disparity among super recruited teams vs non super recruited teams has an effect or not relative to the drop in hs football participants but what I do know is that today's players are the equivalent to "engineered specimens" for the game.

They are bigger, faster and much more powerful than decades past. The collisions and stress put on one's body are often hellacious and as much as I have been part of this game throughout my early life I would certainly question whether I would allow my kids to play and deal with that in today's era. I am pretty sure a lot of today's parents are thinking the same thing before giving their kids the green light to play.

Kids can be developed though. 

Not every great football player was a five star with multiple college offers in 4th grade. 

The average hsfb team matched up against IMG/MD/SJB is like lining up and jumping off the cliff. Nobody in their right mind is gonna line up and jump off the cliff. 

That's just part of my opinion though. Also, the fact that "most" of the "specimens" are being allowed to pile onto a few teams leaves the other teams barren and non-competitive, but, the risk of injury is still the same for them. Seems like another cliff. 

Why line up and jump off the cliff when it's not "right-minded"?

There isn't enough data to prove or disprove my opinion, but, there is some connect-a-dots.

 

 

[Belly Bob]

25 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Kids can be developed though. 

Not every great football player was a five star with multiple college offers in 4th grade. 

The average hsfb team matched up against IMG/MD/SJB is like lining up and jumping off the cliff. Nobody in their right mind is gonna line up and jump off the cliff. 

[...]

Examples aren't hard to find, even at the high school level. Austin Hooper was a 3-star while at DLS. He went on to win the John Mackey Award at Stanford and now starts in the NFL.

Overall numbers aside, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a kid said that he'd rather put his energy into baseball or wrestling than get crushed again by SJB's 9 D1-bound defensive linemen. 

[Belly Bob]

3 hours ago, bigrobstercraws said:

The concussion scare is odd since parents are choosing sports with nearly identical concussion rates in lacrosse and soccer instead of football. It's one thing if they're playing badminton or whatever instead, but to transition into another concussion sport is odd. 

That's probably bc the media has focused on concussions in football and parents are misinformed.

I remember watching a documentary (I can't remember what it was called) that argued that cheerleaders suffer grievous injuries more frequently than football players do (they toss those girls high into the air and often they come crashing down into other girls or to the ground) but no one talks about it. I don't know whether that's true or not, but it wouldn't be shocking to me if it was. What do I know about cheerleading?

[Belly Bob]

20 hours ago, Ararar said:

I didn’t agree to anything I only pointed  out correctly that DLS recruits 8th graders like any other private school.you’re Trying to associate a school that’s not even allowed to participate in its states playoffs because of the way they operate to SJB and that’s disingenuous at best.

It may be disingenuous to say that there are no relevant differences between IMG's and SJB's transfer policies, just like it may be disingenuous to say that there are no relevant differences between SJB's and DLS's policies.

And I think that's @Pops's point. 

[Gospeeder]

7 minutes ago, HawgGoneIt said:

Kids can be developed though. 

Not every great football player was a five star with multiple college offers in 4th grade. 

The average hsfb team matched up against IMG/MD/SJB is like lining up and jumping off the cliff. Nobody in their right mind is gonna line up and jump off the cliff. 

That's just part of my opinion though. Also, the fact that "most" of the "specimens" are being allowed to pile onto a few teams leaves the other teams barren and non-competitive, but, the risk of injury is still the same for them. Seems like another cliff. 

Why line up and jump off the cliff when it's not "right-minded"?

There isn't enough data to prove or disprove my opinion, but, there is some connect-a-dots.

 

 

You are correct in your assessment but I think even the most basic programs in the country have more advanced facilities and aggressive training even though the talent level is lower. 

As an example without getting too personal: I practiced in college along side and against five eventual NFL starters, three of whom were all pro and in several super bowls. Our OL and DL averaged 240 lbs. Our better 40 yd sprinters were in the high 4's. Our linebackers of which I was one, averaged 200 lbs with our 40's in the low 5's..

In today's game, those stats, depending on natural ability for the game of course, might be hard pressed to get a second look even at the HS level. 

I stopped by this past season, to watch a JV game on the sidelines at our local HS who by the standards we talk about is very average or less. They were not only bigger than we were in college but I was somewhat shocked at the speed and how hard they hit... and they were only freshmen and sofs.

[Ararar]

13 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

It may be disingenuous to say that there are no relevant differences between IMG's and SJB's transfer policies, just like it may be disingenuous to say that there are no relevant differences between SJB's and DLS's policies.

And I think that's @Pops's point. 

Except there are no relevant differences when it comes to recruiting 8th graders which as I have said already was my point in posting from the DLS website.Stop trying to make it something else 

[Pops]

3 hours ago, Ararar said:

Except there are no relevant differences when it comes to recruiting 8th graders which as I have said already was my point in posting from the DLS website.Stop trying to make it something else 

I don’t know what SJB does with regards to 8th graders — from your data a few days ago, sounds like most of the “talent” is homegrown (even though their imported talent is still more than most top 100 sort of teams)

but I still feel you assume that DLS must be recruiting 8th graders in some form or fashion so why split hairs and I’m telling you that I believe your perception is wrong 

personal story — my oldest son only went parochial for 8th grade, which is a bit of a shortcut for DLS admissions whose first 2 priorities are 1) legacy and then 2) local parochials and they’ve had years with < 50% acceptance rate.  So, we were a bit nervous about prospects and in our application efforts Br Christopher required an in person interview, where he asked my son if anyone from the football staff had contacted him.  He didn’t even play football and answered “no sir” to which Br Christopher replied “that’s good because if you did I’d have to fire Coach Ladouceur”.  

That was DLS’s environment which I think has been loosened a bit under Br Robert, but it’s nit like there was a seismic shift in direction 

I don’t think I’m being as judgy as you may perceive, but I do feel like helping you understand the environment at DLS 

 

[Pops]

4 hours ago, Ararar said:

Except there are no relevant differences when it comes to recruiting 8th graders which as I have said already was my point in posting from the DLS website.Stop trying to make it something else 

Don’t you think you kinda made broad jumps of evidence to conclusions to suggest that DLS offering a “customized experience” on their admissions page is code for “we recruit”

[Ararar]

2 hours ago, Pops said:

Don’t you think you kinda made broad jumps of evidence to conclusions to suggest that DLS offering a “customized experience” on their admissions page is code for “we recruit”

All I said was they customized the experience for whatever the kid/parents were interested in including athletics 

[Pops]

53 minutes ago, Ararar said:

All I said was they customized the experience for whatever the kid/parents were interested in including athletics 

Ok

seemed like there was an implication 

otherwise don’t see any relevance to discussion 

probably beating subject to death at this point 

[BannedAdInfinitum]

58 minutes ago, Ararar said:

All I said was they customized the experience for whatever the kid/parents were interested in including athletics 

Which is totally reasonable and uncontroversial to everybody except Spartan fans.

[181pl]

When Kirby Smart lands his helicopter on the 50 yard line at Plant HS to impress some recruits (did this yesterday), something is wrong. Too much pomp and circumstance.

[bigrobstercraws]

22 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

That's probably bc the media has focused on concussions in football and parents are misinformed.

I remember watching a documentary (I can't remember what it was called) that argued that cheerleaders suffer grievous injuries more frequently than football players do (they toss those girls high into the air and often they come crashing down into other girls or to the ground) but no one talks about it. I don't know whether that's true or not, but it wouldn't be shocking to me if it was. What do I know about cheerleading?

I'm about 99 % sure this site doesn't count cheerleading as a sport

https://completeconcussions.com/2018/12/05/concussion-rates-what-sport-most-concussions/

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, bigrobstercraws said:

I'm about 99 % sure this site doesn't count cheerleading as a sport

https://completeconcussions.com/2018/12/05/concussion-rates-what-sport-most-concussions/

I found it under "Youth athletes". Cheerleaders are 9th on the list, sandwiched between baseball and volleyball. 

Also concussions account for about 20 percent of cheering injuries. 

[Pops]

On 1/30/2019 at 3:47 PM, Ararar said:

Says the guy who backs a team with a 300 game winning streak in its region 

There are differences 

DLS has never once had the most D1s in CA (usually isn’t in top 10, besides being #1 team in CA most of last 30 years); rarely has the most in Norcal and is broadly admired for their work ethic and sportsmanship 

SJB can take a different approach — they’re not breaking the new more lenient rules regarding transfers.   

But it’s FAR from a similar environment 

Negro reminds me of the coach of the Kansas school in season 3 of last Chance u — a street kid from LA, who talks to talk and is all about ballers.

Again, nothing wrong or illegal about that but it’s not only dissimilar, it’s closer to polar opposite 

[Pops]

18 hours ago, BannedAdInfinitum said:

Which is totally reasonable and uncontroversial to everybody except Spartan fans.

It is totally incontroversial until the implications are implied 

without implications, that excerpt has absolutely zero relevance on this board — May as well as given the music department curriculum (as you well know, but you are adept at being oblivious to points that don’t fit your agenda)

[15yds4gibberish]

On 1/30/2019 at 1:45 PM, PrepGridiron said:

If there is sarcasm in this, please excuse the response, but the assertion was that the elephant in the room regarding declining participation numbers was competitive equity (or lack thereof). My point is that SJB being a magnet for talent, IMO, has a very minimal (if any) affect on whether a kid from Eagle Rock decides to play football. 

All that said, I partly get Hawg's argument as the same is happening with our local Little League. So many travel baseball teams have built up that parents are taking their talented kids to those leagues. As an anecdotal rule, these kids are good because their parents most likely have an interest and knowledge of baseball, so along with them taking away their talented kids they are taking away competent coaches that could otherwise coach up a team full of kids with limited baseball knowledge. This creates a vacuum for these little leagues and because there aren't coaches there to to coach and talent to help sharpen skills, parents and kids are less inclined to participate and find alternative outlets. Some of these concepts are discussed in this great article from the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/whats-lost-when-only-rich-kids-play-sports/541317/ 

Complicated question.  I suspect there are many confounding factors contributing to the decline in football participation.  Not really aware of anything that quantifies the relative contribution of each of the many potential reasons.  So until then,  it's choose your favorite narrative and make the case…

@PrepGridiron I was also going to point to an Atlantic piece that made an important point about the many things that helps the top 10% remain the in top 10%, including their approach to youth sport as a mechanism to gain college admission. I thought maybe your link was it, but it wasn't.   I'll see if I can find it another time.

Anyway, while reading your article, I saw this new Atlantic article about the declining participation in football.  Touches on a lot of complicated issues including race, socio-economics, culture, concussions etc..  Cool-Whip figures prominently in the piece.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/02/football-white-flight-racial-divide/581623/

[Texasvic]

On 1/31/2019 at 12:35 PM, Belly Bob said:

That's probably bc the media has focused on concussions in football and parents are misinformed.

I remember watching a documentary (I can't remember what it was called) that argued that cheerleaders suffer grievous injuries more frequently than football players do (they toss those girls high into the air and often they come crashing down into other girls or to the ground) but no one talks about it. I don't know whether that's true or not, but it wouldn't be shocking to me if it was. What do I know about cheerleading?

Yes youre right. Most of these studies made on concussions and cte are extremely biased and flawed. Not wrong tho but theyre trying to push something. And yes lax and soccer have similar concussion numbers., heck even basketball