Memphis police

[Belly Bob]

6 hours ago, Wildcat Will said:

There is a need to be understanding of zip code knowledge.

I agree.

Some of those neighborhoods are tough to police. I suspect that's why places like Atlanta struggle to find people willing to do the job.

[Horsefly]

4 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

There's also the fallacy of anecdotal evidence, which you seem to commit several more times, including here

👇

and which @Wildcat Will seems to commit several times, including here

👇

If we want to prove @Wildcat Will's original thesis, that "the badge is not here to protect and serve the community" and that "the badge is not the friend of the youth," then you're going to have to do a lot more than appeal to personal experience. 

Anecdotal evidence is my experience in evaluating any system. We all use it for assessing doctors, schools, restaurants, etc. 

Once again I asked you what were the national policing reforms that closed the gap in trust since segregation?  

[Horsefly]

1 minute ago, Belly Bob said:

I agree.

Some of those neighborhoods are tough to police. I suspect that's why places like Atlanta struggle to find people willing to do the job.

But that’s not what he meant by zip code bias.  It’s the leniency given to wealthier zip codes 

[Troll]

1 hour ago, Belly Bob said:

If we want to prove @Wildcat Will's original thesis, that "the badge is not here to protect and serve the community" and that "the badge is not the friend of the youth," then you're going to have to do a lot more than appeal to personal experience. 

LOL, back on your A game i see. 🤣

So you are telling me that my getting pulled over and harassed relentlessly 

for driving an exotic car on the strip at night is irrelevant?

Why ... just because my color was not relevant ???

😝

 

 

 

[Belly Bob]

19 hours ago, Wildcat Will said:

no police officer should be sent on a mental health emergency, they should only be dispatched in pairs with a supervisor aware of CAD info, not allowed to drink energy drinks on duty, establish new guidelines for less enforcement of civil issues, with a remade policy of law enforcement, not feelings enforcement, to prevent confrontations. Require officers to be explanatory of laws related to reason for contact. ↳

If you're already struggling to hire police officers, where are you going to find these supervisors with CAD info who are going set up your tea party?

[Belly Bob]

6 hours ago, Wildcat Will said:

You are not living black so I know you have no knowledge of living black.

I'm not living as a dolphin either, but I can still know some things about dolphins. 

[concha]

 

Has anyone noted Willie's strenuous avoidance of addressing the personal responsibility of folks to not commit crime and to seek to reduce crime in their communities through personal action and the ballot box?

 

[concha]

7 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

But that’s not what he meant by zip code bias.  It’s the leniency given to wealthier zip codes 

 

Is wealthier the relevant descriptor or is it "more law-abiding"?

Probably a bit of both, yeah?

 

[Belly Bob]

15 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

Anecdotal evidence is my experience in evaluating any system. We all use it for assessing doctors, schools, restaurants, etc. 

I'm sure you didn't mean to say doctors, schools, and restaurants, since those aren't systems. 

And I don't know what else to do than appeal to the fallacy of anecdotal evidence to explain why using anecdotes to assess the healthcare system or the educational system or any other sufficiently complex system is a serious mistake. 

It's what people did before we developed science.

[Wildcat Will]

17 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

I agree.

Some of those neighborhoods are tough to police. I suspect that's why places like Atlanta struggle to find people willing to do the job.

I don't think you get what I meant. I was referring to those living in a zip where their interaction with and personal knowledge of what it is like to live black in America, is limited because of where they live.

[Horsefly]

8 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

Here's a broad overview. It mentions major reform efforts in every decade from the 60s onward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_reform_in_the_United_States

These were not transformative that would restore trust after a century of abuse.

ironically though in ‘67 is when the Supreme Court gave police qualified immunity after they arrested 15 clergy members for breaching the peace after they attempted to use a segregated waiting room at a bus station.

Civil rights advocates have been fighting to get this repealed for some time. But here we are … 

[Horsefly]

13 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

I'm sure you didn't mean to say doctors, schools, and restaurants, since those aren't systems. 

And I don't know what else to do than appeal to the fallacy of anecdotal evidence to explain why using anecdotes to assess the healthcare system or the educational system or any other sufficiently complex system is a serious mistake. 

It's what people did before we developed science.

We went through this this morning.  There are many that mistrust westernized medicine in general and public education in its entirety based solely on their experiences. 

once again we are talking about trust in policing.  Why do you think black people should trust policing in 2023? 

(You do understand trust is a relational thing it’s not really gained via legislation)

[Belly Bob]

18 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

Once again I asked you what were the national policing reforms that closed the gap in trust since segregation?   ↳

I take it that you don't want me to list all the reforms. I take it that you want to list the ones that closed the gap in trust.

I suspect that no reforms will close the gap in trust. The two sides will have to learn to trust each other, and I don't think the police trust the people who live in those tough neighborhoods in places like Atalanta, which is probably why those departments have a hard time filling their ranks. 

[Belly Bob]

11 minutes ago, Wildcat Will said:

I don't think you get what I meant. ↳

I got your point. 

I was asking you to consider the lived experiences of police offers in certain zip codes. Unless you have personal experience of what it's like to live as a cop policing those zip codes, maybe you shouldn't say that the police aren't there to protect and serve those communities. 

That attitude might help to explain why cops don't want to work there. 

[Horsefly]

20 minutes ago, concha said:

 

Is wealthier the relevant descriptor or is it "more law-abiding"?

Probably a bit of both, yeah?

 

I told you guys I lived in an middle/upper middle class community growing up. There were plenty of drug users and distributors in the area. Drug use isn’t exclusive to the inner city. 

kids out doing stupid shit on the weekend (running over mailboxes) and cops taking them home to mom and dad, promising to fix what they broke,  only for them to be back at school Monday.

[Belly Bob]

14 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

We went through this this morning.  There are many that mistrust westernized medicine in general and public education in its entirety based solely on their experiences. 

And once again, that many people believe that x based on their personal experiences doesn't imply that x is true or that their beliefs are rational or well grounded. 

For example, many people believe that the COVID vaccine is unsafe based on their personal experiences.

[Troll]

12 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

 Why do you think black people should trust policing in 2023? 

 

because around here "Black ain't got nuttin ta do wit it"...

unless you were talking about the actual majority of minorities police force

that you think you mistrust ?

Now I know YMMV, so do you really still have all white police forces overseeing all black communities by you in 2023?

 

PS: if not, why wouldn't your community trust "itself" ?

🤔

[Belly Bob]

10 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

I told you guys I lived in an middle/upper middle class community growing up. There were plenty of drug users and distributors in the area. Drug use isn’t exclusive to the inner city.  ↳

kids out doing stupid shit on the weekend (running over mailboxes) and cops taking them home to mom and dad, promising to fix what they broke,  only for them to be back at school Monday. ↳

Well, that's certainly different from my experience growing up in a middle class community.

So now we're bumping up against the very narrow limits of anecdotal evidence. 

[Troll]

Just now, Belly Bob said:

Well, that's certainly different from my experience growing up in a middle lass community.

🤣

[Horsefly]

7 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

I take it that you don't want me to list all the reforms. I take it that you want to list the ones that closed the gap in trust.

I suspect that no reforms will close the gap in trust. The two sides will have to learn to trust each other, and I don't think the police trust the people who live in those tough neighborhoods in places like Atalanta, which is probably why those departments have a hard time filling their ranks. 

😂 trust is not just lost from those in the inner city but many blacks who are in the burbs too don’t trust them .

I said earlier trust is relational not just legislative. (Don’t confuse trust with hate or malice, they’re not necessarily the same) 

have you spoken to any black people about their thoughts on this subject? We all aren’t a monolith but you may get a solid input discussing face to face 

[Horsefly]

6 minutes ago, Belly Bob said:

And once again, that many people believe that x based on their personal experiences doesn't imply that x is true or that their beliefs are rational or well grounded. 

For example, many people believe that the COVID vaccine is unsafe based on their personal experiences.

We’re talking about trust, trust thats a relational issue.  What perspective are you coming from to say the lack of trust of an entity is unfounded or not true? 

[Troll]

2 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

unfounded or not true? 

two entirely different essays....🙃

 

BTW: nice try mixing up yer boolean expression there..😝 

[FreeBird]

46 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

But that’s not what he meant by zip code bias.  It’s the leniency given to wealthier zip codes 

Is it leniency or are the kids raised better in the zip codes? Which zip code is the kid more likely to run from cops and resist?

38 minutes ago, concha said:

 

Is wealthier the relevant descriptor or is it "more law-abiding"?

Probably a bit of both, yeah?

 

 

[concha]

34 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

I told you guys I lived in an middle/upper middle class community growing up. There were plenty of drug users and distributors in the area. Drug use isn’t exclusive to the inner city. 

kids out doing stupid shit on the weekend (running over mailboxes) and cops taking them home to mom and dad, promising to fix what they broke,  only for them to be back at school Monday.

Of course it isn't. But there is generally far less obvious dealing on the streets and the rampant and senseless violence seen in the inner city.

Mailboxes?  You really need to revisit the FBI crime stats.

 

[Belly Bob]

16 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

😂 trust is not just lost from those in the inner city but many blacks who are in the burbs too don’t trust them . ↳

And many white people in the burbs don't trust the police either. My family had drug problems. They hated the police. They had all kinds of stories about how evil and wicked the police are.

But I never had trouble with them. I figured the difference could be explained by my behavior. 

16 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

I said earlier trust is relational not just legislative. (Don’t confuse trust with hate or malice, they’re not necessarily the same)  ↳

Same with the police.

16 minutes ago, Horsefly said:

have you spoken to any black people about their thoughts on this subject? We all aren’t a monolith but you may get a solid input discussing face to face  ↳
↳

Not really to face to face. But I understand that Black people aren't a monolith. As you know, some Black people have made a career of defending conservative views on crime and law enforcement.