It’s official, STA at DLS on 8/23

[CaliNorth]

46 minutes ago, badrouter said:

DLS could easily argue they'd rather have all of the wins, undefeated seasons and championships they've had over what STA has. Remember, only on this message board and this message board alone will you find people that put much stock into "OOS". Most coaches, players and fans care about winning the games on their schedule and then winning it all in the playoffs. They don't really give a shit about "OOS".

STA is 1-0 over DLS, yes.The team they beat was the only DLS team in memory who was ever on the verge of losing at home to a Bay area team. I happened to be there when DLS miraculously won in 2OT against Bellarmine, just three weeks before traveling across country to Fort Lauderdale. If STA wins again this year to go 2-0, then they'd have more room to talk!

What were you doing in Concord at the Bellarmine game ?  Business ?

[Belly Bob]

1 hour ago, RedZone said:

I would rather have STA's OOS record than DLS's. 

What's that say about DLS?

Aren't they the weight room kings and doesn't the brotherhood play tougher than anyone?

Didn't STA beat DLS 30-6?

I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I think that @badrouter's claim is that if two teams, A and B, are roughly equal in individual talent and if A is focused on working hard in the weight room and playing tough and B is focused on selling their players to college recruiters, then A will be more likely to win if the two played each other under fair conditions, where "fair conditions" would include things like playing at a neutral location.

DLS's record against OOS opponents vs. STA's record against OOS opponents would count for or against that claim only if the games played met the above conditions. 

Even if DLS and STA met the above conditions, the outcome wouldn't count for much since the truth of claim can't be determined by a single outcome. 

All that said, it's not an implausible claim on its face: "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard."

[Belly Bob]

11 hours ago, Wosinc said:

I think you’re confusing engaging a rational human being in a reasonable, civil discussion with, well, beating your head against a wall.

What are you suggesting?

If I can't pretend that there are rational human beings of good will lurking around this forum, then there would be no pleasure in posting here. 

I don't mind LOS, since I think he's an angry little man who comes here to vent his frustrations at life. Here, he can call people stupid with impunity, which he can't do in real life, because he's too scared. And that makes him feel even worse about himself, that he can't be LOS in real life. He can't express all his retarded bravado. In real life, he has no voice and no power, no one to talk down to. It's good that he gets to come here and play at being someone for a little while, because it's harmless and it probably keeps him from acting out in other, more serous ways. 

[Belly Bob]

6 hours ago, Rippers said:

[...] This is where you can say how DLS frowning on their players participating in summer camps negatively impacts college recruiting, but that is a tangential argument.

[...]

I wonder what the rationale is for their frowning on their players' participating in those camps and combines. I remember a few years ago (maybe 2014) DLS had a highly recruited defensive lineman. He was a big black kid whose father (I think) had played in the NFL. If I remembering correctly, he wanted to attend one those camps in the season before his senior year and the coaches thought that his doing so was against the values they teach there. The kid decided to attend the camp and the coaches kicked him off the team. 

But I know that this year's team has had at least two kids attend those camps. So, I'm wondering whether things are changing and why, or whether I'm just misinformed about the whole thing. 

[Belly Bob]

4 hours ago, 954gator said:

I agree 100% on the fact that DLS, on contrary to the amount of offers is usually fairly talented.   It does beg the question on the scholarship number. 

I think this might be one of the bigger reasons right here.   These college recruiters are getting lazier and they want to go to camps and see the talent in the area congregate rather than visit every school in town.  I never understood why coaches would frown upon these types of camps.  

I think the last question is the big one here.   I know people will have opposite opinions here, but MY answer would be some sort of balance.   Winning helps out the coaches and it's what the fans/boosters want most, with the scholarships helping the kids.  Now, does every kid care about getting a scholarship in the sport?   Most likely not, but for the ones that do, I'm sure support from their coaching staff would help them accomplish that.  

Interesting topic.  

If it seems so clear to you, as you sit in Florida, that DLS is usually more talented than the number of offers they receive, then why isn't it clear to professional recruiters, especially those sitting in or near the Bay Area?

[Belly Bob]

6 hours ago, Rippers said:

I get the "wink, wink", but anyone who thinks DLS doesn't care about winning has their head buried in the sand.  They want to, prepare to, and expect to win every game they play, but they can accept a loss, provided the team gives its best effort.  That is the subtle difference.

As you and I and probably everyone else knows, the interesting question isn't whether DLS cares about winning (obviously they do) but whether they are committed to other goals the pursuit of which might result in their winning fewer games than they would otherwise win.

[Pops]

3 hours ago, badrouter said:

DLS could easily argue they'd rather have all of the wins, undefeated seasons and championships they've had over what STA has. Remember, only on this message board and this message board alone will you find people that put much stock into "OOS". Most coaches, players and fans care about winning the games on their schedule and then winning it all in the playoffs. They don't really give a shit about "OOS".

STA is 1-0 over DLS, yes.The team they beat was the only DLS team in memory who was ever on the verge of losing at home to a Bay area team. I happened to be there when DLS miraculously won in 2OT against Bellarmine, just three weeks before traveling across country to Fort Lauderdale. If STA wins again this year to go 2-0, then they'd have more room to talk!

That was you?!!  I remember that vaguely (not meeting but your report)

as you’ll recall, DLS would have lost if bellarmine succeeded with a PAT in first OT

what you’re not quite right about us that being the first time DLS has almost lost in Norcal — couple of examples:

1). 2008 — DLS was attempting a tying XP vs Serra with a couple of minutes left, fumbled the snap, and ran it in for 2 pt conversion 

2). 2009 — (your year), DLS trailed (one by 7, one by 11) or was tied at half bs first 3 Norcal opponents they played 

3). 2010 — California hs appeared to have recovered an onside kick, down 6, with a ton of momentum (they were down 19 at half) — alas, they were offsides 

It’s happened more than you think for a team that hasn’t lost in Norcal since ‘91

2011 was actually a pretty good DLS team, but they were scuffling early, as you noted.  Not to incite accusations of excuses, but they lost both projected RBs in off-season (1 Pac12 offered kid to injury and another that sophomore all-state to discipline — the kid with the 2nd most carries, and 2 of the fumbles, hadn’t even practiced with first team prior to trip — but did score a perfect MCAT a couple of years ago) and their QB (who would later start at Wisconsin) was injured and clearly not himself.  Nonetheless, at the time, that was imho, the best DLS team that had ever been beaten (which has only been exceeded now by Trinity (TX) beating the ‘15 team (and possibly SJB in ‘13 although I’d take ‘11 over ‘13)

[Pops]

1 hour ago, Belly Bob said:

I wonder what the rationale is for their frowning on their players' participating in those camps and combines. I remember a few years ago (maybe 2014) DLS had a highly recruited defensive lineman. He was a big black kid whose father (I think) had played in the NFL. If I remembering correctly, he wanted to attend one those camps in the season before his senior year and the coaches thought that his doing so was against the values they teach there. The kid decided to attend the camp and the coaches kicked him off the team. 

But I know that this year's team has had at least two kids attend those camps. So, I'm wondering whether things are changing and why, or whether I'm just misinformed about the whole thing. 

I believe DLS coaches began cringing at those camps when Kevin Simon, an all-American LB, blew out his knee in one right before his senior year — he still played at Tennessee and with Redskins but was never the same player 

you’re referring to Khalil McKenzie in 2013.  His father, Reggie, was recently fired as GM of the Raiders (and, I never really thought Of this irony, he also played at Tennessee — and now for chiefs)

2013 May have been dls’s Most talented post streak team (tied for most D1s ever with 7), but is the only DLS team since I’ve been paying attention that never really came together — wasn’t all Khalil’s fault, but this was one team where the best players weren’t necessarily good leaders 

btw, coaches didn’t kick him off team — the family transferred to Clayton valley (along with his talented little brother who, by all accounts was a great kid who didn’t want to transfer) — DLS coaches approves of the transfer and (at least publically) wished him well 

[Pops]

1 hour ago, Belly Bob said:

As you and I and probably everyone else knows, the interesting question isn't whether DLS cares about winning (obviously they do) but whether they are committed to other goals the pursuit of which might result in their winning fewer games than they would otherwise win.

Winning with integrity 

DLS could easily decide to become the Bay Area’s version of IMG, sta, SJB, MD or SJC, but I hope they don’t 

DLS only gets a fraction of the “talent” (starred players) in its own student body geography, much less whole Bay Area or  Norcal

btw, I’m not suggesting any of the above are breaking rules so I’d clarify that I’m referring to moral integrity 

DLS would get zero joy out of even the best results — how much is a 14th MNC worth vs your soul?

[BUFORDGAWOLVES]

Molding our youth....

Isn't that's what High School is about?

BGW

[RedZone]

8 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I think that @badrouter's claim is that if two teams, A and B, are roughly equal in individual talent and if A is focused on working hard in the weight room and playing tough and B is focused on selling their players to college recruiters, then A will be more likely to win if the two played each other under fair conditions, where "fair conditions" would include things like playing at a neutral location.

DLS's record against OOS opponents vs. STA's record against OOS opponents would count for or against that claim only if the games played met the above conditions. 

Even if DLS and STA met the above conditions, the outcome wouldn't count for much since the truth of claim can't be determined by a single outcome. 

All that said, it's not an implausible claim on its face: "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard."

A coach trying to get kids to the next level has nothing to do with hard work in the weight room and playing tough?

It's a silly thought.

Some of you people use ridiculous thoughts and every angle in the book to make yourselves feel better about your team/whatever.

It's like I always heard on these forums don bosco ate nails and worked out like the US Marines....well, we (Rummel) played don bosco in 2015 and I saw absolutely NO evidence of that. 

My opinion is the current STA HC is a terrible X and O guy. Especially on the offensive side. They call way too many wasted and predictable plays......he's not fully utilizing his talent in other words.

BUT, there's no evidence STA doesn't work as hard as anyone else.

[RedZone]

badrouter is evidently a Lakeland guy so I get his motives....

[954gator]

7 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

If it seems so clear to you, as you sit in Florida, that DLS is usually more talented than the number of offers they receive, then why isn't it clear to professional recruiters, especially those sitting in or near the Bay Area?

I'm guessing those recruiters are busy going to camps and 7v7s?       I'm telling you these guys are lazy now.   

[The Guru]

11 hours ago, Rippers said:

Really?

According to 247 Sports and ESPN, he had offers from Northern Arizona, Air Force, Columbia, Dartmouth, Howard, Nevada, San Jose St, Utah State, Yale and Arizona State.

https://247sports.com/Recruitment/Jhasi-Wilson-93076/RecruitInterests/

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/233583/jhasi-wilson

Deaf, blind and dumb is no way to go through life.

It helps to read threads before you comment in them.

If a player claims offers from Arizona State and Air Force but then signs with Northern Arizona, he didn't have those offers on signing day.

Here is how it works, again.

20 hours ago, The Guru said:

A common fallacy, repeated.

He signed with Northern Arizona because that was his best offer.

You can look at Rivals databases all day but on signing day the only offers you have are the LOIs you can sign and deliver.

Period.

Anything else is just a lie.

 

[The Guru]

9 hours ago, RedZone said:

I would rather have STA's OOS record than DLS's. 

What's that say about DLS?

Aren't they the weight room kings and doesn't the brotherhood play tougher than anyone?

Didn't STA beat DLS 30-6?

It's OK if De La Salle loses because they pray together and have coaches who teach social studies.

 

[The Guru]

9 hours ago, RedZone said:

What exactly are you trying to prove anyways?

badrouter is another fan of a program that sucks at getting their kids into college.

Lakeland has probably had more non-qualifiers and jailed former players than any program in history.

But, hey, they're 6-2 against STA and can rub their faces in it! That's what life is all about!

[The Guru]

9 hours ago, RedZone said:

One minute OOS is important to a badrouter, the next minute not so much.

The guy is a disaster.

One minute he claims that Lakeland doesn't care about OOS and then the next he claims that Lakeland wasn't getting any credit so they stopped playing OOS.

So, in other words, they cared too much.

badrouter is the dictionary definition of a cherry-picker who merely makes whatever argument suits his homer instincts.

When he needs to prop up STA because they're the only team with a pulse Lakeland has beaten in 10 years, he talks about how close the Bishop Gorman game was and how nobody would be confident in winning against them

When he needs to insult STA, he talks about the DLS win in 2011 wasn't that impressive because that DLS team was close to losing twp weeks before.

This is, of course, after he brags about beating a worse DLS team in OT in 2009.

[The Guru]

8 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I think that @badrouter's claim is that if two teams, A and B, are roughly equal in individual talent and if A is focused on working hard in the weight room and playing tough and B is focused on selling their players to college recruiters, then A will be more likely to win if the two played each other under fair conditions, where "fair conditions" would include things like playing at a neutral location.

But, as with most people on this forum, badrouter is just pulling this stuff straight out of his ass.

STA has a great weight program. Nobody who's seen it or knows even a little bit about it would say otherwise.

When your program sucks at something (like getting kids college offers) you are forced to try to compensate. With DLS and Lakeland, it's an obvious appeal to how hard they work.

But in reality, they don't work any harder than other big programs.

[The Guru]

8 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

All that said, it's not an implausible claim on its face: "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard."

But his application of the claim is completely made up.

It seems that you just take anybody's word for it as long as it lines up with your preconceived notion.

 

[The Guru]

12 hours ago, CaliNorth said:

You bring up Jhasi wilson a few times. You really think he was a standout player ?  He typifies the point, that DLS has good H>S. players, but not necessarily players that translate to the next level. Wilson is solid, but he lacks that D-1 speed, imop, that is needed at the next level. If I have questions about that, I am sure recruiters do also.  Northern Arizona plays teams like North Dakota. He will get a good education for free, and also get to see time on the field and not sit on a bench somewhere.

He was 6'2" 210 lbs. Good athlete and captain at top program.

De La Salle's staff couldn't place him on an FBS roster anywhere in America.

This counters Pops' claim that DLS has a bunch of 5'9" slapdicks who can't get looks becuase of measurables.

[The Guru]

12 hours ago, CaliNorth said:

He will get a good education for free, and also get to see time on the field and not sit on a bench somewhere.

Are you shitting me? Northern Arizona?

If he had offers from FBS schools and Ivy's and he chose an Ivy for educational reasons than that's understandable.

But the kid clearly wanted to play major college football.

Yet he's at Northern Arizona.

People who claim to care more about kids's lives than others somehow don't think that this is important or indicative of anything.

[The Guru]

8 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

If it seems so clear to you, as you sit in Florida, that DLS is usually more talented than the number of offers they receive, then why isn't it clear to professional recruiters, especially those sitting in or near the Bay Area?

Your coaches suck at this part of their job.

The cognitive dissonance displayed here from somebody who desperately wants people to think he's smart is breathtaking. 

[The Guru]

8 hours ago, Belly Bob said:

As you and I and probably everyone else knows, the interesting question isn't whether DLS cares about winning (obviously they do) but whether they are committed to other goals the pursuit of which might result in their winning fewer games than they would otherwise win.

What goals might those be?

Certainly working harder and smarter to get kids offers isn't a detriment to winning.

I just wonder what excuses you'll come up with next to excuse poor performance.

[The Guru]

6 hours ago, Pops said:

Winning with integrity 

And, of course, failing to get kids offers is the price of integrity.

Or at least that's what fanboys want you to believe when they're run out of explanations.

[The Guru]

6 hours ago, Pops said:

DLS could easily decide to become the Bay Area’s version of IMG, sta, SJB, MD or SJC, but I hope they don’t 

DLS only gets a fraction of the “talent” (starred players) in its own student body geography, much less whole Bay Area or  Norcal

Cognitive dissonance.

Fingers placed in ears.

When he doesn't have a response to the overwhelming evidence, he just reverts back to "DLS is pious and doesn't have talent" claptrap.